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bigtex
Joined: Mar 30, 2006 Posts: 323 Location: Cupertino, California
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject:
Quality versus Value Subject description: I'm going to buy a modular |
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I'll have some money coming my way soon (tax return, overtime pay, birthday money, etc, etc) and I don't want to let it burn hole in my pocket. I'm already planning how to spend it. I've been looking at the different modular systems a bit, and I still can't decide what I want.
Do I want to get the most for my money and buy a Doepfer?
Do I want to do the little-at-a-time method and get the Synthesizers.com module per month starter plan?
Do I want to spend a lot of money and only get a few things that do a lot and are of exceptional quality? (Blacet, Cynthia, MOTM, Serge, Buchla, etc)
Oh, decisions, decisions.
I'll probably have no more than $2000 to spend. Does anybody have any input? Can any Doepfer users comment on the quality and value? Would I be better off slowly investing in more expensive modules?
One thought I had was that if I buy the Doepfer and I'm not quite satisfied with it, that will only inspire me to finish all of the DIY experiemnts I've got floating around. I do intend to make quite a bit myself, but I want to get at least a small pro built system to get me started. |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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G2 patch files: 18
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject:
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Have you considered a Clavia G2? <$2000, hundreds of modules, MIDI, polyphony (which some complain as sub-standard, but not if you compare it to nearly any other modular). And, it's very portable. In fact, there's very little I can think that's negative to say about the product, only things I'd wish for even more of. And for your price range, you could also get the expansion card to double the DSP power. |
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matrix
Joined: Aug 28, 2005 Posts: 81 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject:
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How does the G2 compare to a tactile modular? I have a micro modular and the software interface it cool, but I don't find myself coming back for more for whatever reason. A physical modular just seems like it would be a completely different experience. So much so that I can't see comparing them for some reason, but maybe it's just a mental block. I'd be curious what people who had both thought. How does the experience compare? _________________ cheers,
matrix
http://www.matrixsynth.com |
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bigtex
Joined: Mar 30, 2006 Posts: 323 Location: Cupertino, California
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject:
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I've definitely considered Clavia's offerings. Heck, I could pick up a used nord modular for relatively cheap these days. But the thing that always gets me is tactile control. I want a knob per parameter. I want it all laid out before me. Size might be an issue, but I've got some shelf space so I think I can make it work.
Besides, if I wanted to make a synth on a computer screen, I could just use the free StudioFactory, which I quite like. It is good for ideas, and has given me some inspiration to do some DIY design, but I've yet to actually finish any hand made stuff.
If I get a small starter modular system now, I'll continue it in the future. I'm pretty sure a real hardware modular is the only thing that I'll really be satisfied with. After I got my Octave Kitten and used some bench oscillators to mod the CV inputs, I knew I could never turn back.
By the way, I love your site, matrix. I read it almost daily. |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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G2 patch files: 18
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject:
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The G2 only has 8 "real" knobs, but those quickly turn into 120 * 4. However, alot of people around here use another controller, such as the Behringer knob or fader boxes, to increase the number of controls.
However, an expanded G2 will give >1200MIPS, which you might equate to a PC, but considering I've never had it crash, and it has no operating system detering DSP work (system level stuff has it's own processor), it's a wonderful thing. However, it is it's own beast, not an analog mock up.
Anyway, you could always pick up a used Nord Modular (or micro), AND an analog system...best of both worlds. |
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matrix
Joined: Aug 28, 2005 Posts: 81 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject:
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Thanks bigtex, glad you like it. : ) _________________ cheers,
matrix
http://www.matrixsynth.com |
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matrix
Joined: Aug 28, 2005 Posts: 81 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject:
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I forgot to mention, Clavia has a free mono version of the G2 you can use on your PC. I put a post up on it here: http://matrixsynth.blogspot.com/2006/01/free-nord-modular-g2.html
It's definitely not the same as having the hardware synth in front of you, but it could give you a taste of some of the sounds.
I secretly do want a G2 myself. The knobs on it with the displays under each seem a step up from the original nord modular. _________________ cheers,
matrix
http://www.matrixsynth.com |
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bigtex
Joined: Mar 30, 2006 Posts: 323 Location: Cupertino, California
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject:
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Yeah, I've played a bit with the G2 demo. It's neat, but somehow it's not my style. I'm waiting for Robotspeak (my local synth shop) to get a G2 in so I can play with one in person.
It's pretty nice having a place like that around. Hands-on time with a Poly Evolver and Metasonix stuff is great fun. A shame they don't carry modular gear. They're more computer and software oriented. |
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Gregg Hermetech
Joined: Nov 23, 2005 Posts: 35 Location: Paris, France
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject:
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i've got about 40 frac rack modules (blacet, wiard, synthmodules.com, metalbox, bananalogue), which i built up slowly over the period of about 3 years. for me that was a great way to go, because each month i'd get a new module, and could slowly start to learn the function of each new module (and how it integrated with the rest) before another one arrived. i'm very happy with my system |
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Pehr
Joined: Aug 14, 2005 Posts: 1307 Location: Björkvik, Sweden
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 11:37 am Post subject:
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Yes, this is the much discussed software G2 demo. You are supposed to play around with this software, then see the light and immediately order a ton of G2s. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject:
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IMO, both the NM-1 and the G2 are excellent instruments. Both are modular, but still these are not analog modulars. A purely software based analog synth like the Arturia Moog Modular or Reaktor or whatever is still not a 100% substitute for a analog modular synth. It is not a matter of what is best, but rather that these are truly different. I guess the most sensible advice I have is get them all. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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bigtex
Joined: Mar 30, 2006 Posts: 323 Location: Cupertino, California
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Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: | I guess the most sensible advice I have is get them all. |
So buying every synth I want is sensible??? That's what I like to hear!
Well that's it. I'm driving down to Analogue Haven in Los Angeles and buying the whole lot. Thanks elektro80, that's the best advice I've heard all day.
Now where did I put that million dollar bill....?
I think I may just end up going DIY and only buying a few special modules that would be hard to make or for which schematics don't exist. Somehow, I have a hard time wanting to pay over $300 for a single oscillator module when that's how much I paid for my Alesis Micron. |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 7:29 am Post subject:
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Obviously buying the lot isn´t possible.. but..
Comparing synths isn´t like picking your favorite brand of pesto. A Waldorf XT is not a Nord Lead. A racked G-2 is not a wall of Doepfer.
Was a Minimoog ever comparable to an Odyssey? Not really. You would tend to play them in slightly different ways and each had their own sweetspots parameter wise. It is easy to fall in love with the Odessey sound as well as the Minimoog sound. Which one is best?
I guess it is all a matter of making some kind of reasong and then ending up with that particular instrument which matches that reasoning. If you intuitively feel that the hands on interface of an AMS ( analog modular synth ) and the special sonic qualities are what you want then a any SBM (software based modular) will be a disappointment.
If you don´t care much about pots and jacks and you can appreciate certain SBM sonic watermarks, then an SBM is a better choice. As for the price of an AMS v s. an SBM, obviously this is nonsensical. We know why analog stuff is more expensive and the price itself does not say anything about quality or what is best or whatever.
Doepfer? Good stuff.
Another issue is of course the music you want to make with your new modular. An important part of the modular synth mythology is partly based on these monsters being used for stuff they did rather badly.
In retrospect we can now see that the only truly reliable market for "electronic" keyboards from the early 1960s to the mid 90s was the polka crowd. These guys and gals finally got what they wanted and the organs and electric pianos went the way of the dodo. These days digital and hybrids are bringing back those old silly interface ideas and stuff like the Nord G-2 is one possible implementation of an SBM/ standalone synth concept.
In your case I suggest picking a secondhand NM-1 and an old PC/MAC for running the editor application and then you can build an analog synth around that rig. You will get the best of both worlds. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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softfreak
Joined: Feb 12, 2006 Posts: 149 Location: zürich switzerland
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Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject:
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quality.
always.
but that`s what I can`t afford. _________________ electroscape
noise love ! |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:29 am Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: | These guys and gals finally got what they wanted and the organs and electric pianos went the way of the dodo. These days digital and hybrids are bringing back those old silly interface ideas and stuff like the Nord G-2 is one possible implementation of an SBM/ standalone synth concept.
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I don't think you can trace the keyboard of the G2 to the polka boards alone. I think another influence was Moog's choice to connect a keyboard to his modular.
To me it makes sense to keep a modular's interface modular as well. With analogues it's very nice to have things like light-controlled resistors, pads and theremin antennas at hand. The G2's pannel goes someway in that direction with at least dynamic labeling of knobs but I think the future of interfaces for digital modulars is something like the Lemur.
Anyway, modular synthesis is about making choices based on knowing what you want. Some systems are better suited for particular things then others. Some systems are better suited for certain sounds then others. Personally I wouldn't buy Doepfer; they may have some very apealing and exotic modules but many modules lack the soundquality of the more high-end systems and those mini-jacks are relatively fragile. I'm personally atracted to Serge, both to the stability and quality of the modules and to the general additude it has towards signals and their use but that's one of the more expensive brands.... _________________ Kassen |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:29 am Post subject:
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Kassen wrote: | I don't think you can trace the keyboard of the G2 to the polka boards alone. I think another influence was Moog's choice to connect a keyboard to his modular. |
I didn´t quite say that. The "who was the first to connect a keyboard to a synth" won´t pick Moog as the winner anyway, but that debate isn´t really interesting. The main point is that there are now many alternatives to the streamlined polkaboard control surface ( a keyboard and a pad for selecting presets and some sliders for "sex", "Souza" and "spunk" ). _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:26 am Post subject:
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I'd say forget quality and value and just go for fun! What's quality anyway? One man's quality is a another man's sterility. And value? Well you've already admitted that if you had a million bucks you'd spend it (wouldn't we all) so unless you're short of food to put on the table value isn't really gonna make a lot of difference.
When you sit down in front of your gear and start making music (or even just a lot of cool noises) what is gonna make you feel excited? That's what you should move towards. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:39 am Post subject:
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Sure, and Howard has a great relationship with his Sigmund stick.
Whatever works, probably works just fine.
As for "quality" in modulars, obviously a big investment in brand modules is still a big investment and if sending a viking raiding party for that catholic gold is not viable, then I think we all understand Bigtex´s question. I don´t think any of us would seriously suggest he buys an overpriced Elektor Formant off eBay.
However, buying a standard configuration is often a big disappointment at first. I suggest Bigtex imagines what he would like to mess with first, then streamlines the configuration so he has a something really exciting to play with. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:44 am Post subject:
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Re the Doepfer minijacks.. those are sad. I really like many of the modules though. It is quite possible to pick modules that have a really nice sound quality. BTW: I like the brit Oakley modules, but he sold the module business to a US company. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18195 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:37 am Post subject:
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I would get a Nord Modular of one sort or another. No dirty posts, noisy jacks, out of adjustment trimpots, hum. You get a huge number of modules that would cost a fortune if you bought hardware. It is portable, polyphonic and you can save your patches. If you get the G2, you even get a Sigmund Stick to boot. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:56 am Post subject:
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Erm, compared to the components brands like Serge use the NM's pots are cheap budget stuff. Just open one up and look up the component prices online. They are nicer then what many manifacturers use but certainly not high-end by any means. Also, regarding noisy jacks; Doepfer's mini jacks may crackle after a while but the G2's whole sound will drop out at each and every connection made. Comparing them isn't all this simple.
To complicated matters further; Digital synths regularly get praised for superior stability in their oscilators but that only holds true in averaging out the cycle duration over some time. From cylce to cycle a modern high end analogue modular will be WAY more stable then any digital system below the MHz region, at least for waveforms that have flanks. This is especially noticable in FM modulation at very high frequencies. There a Serge is noticably more stable then a Clavia Modular; just A-B them; the difference will immediately be noticable.
There are certainly advantages to emulations but there are also problems with them that analogues don't suffer from at all.
For a digital emulation for general purposes right now I'd reccomend Supper Collider. SC is almost 2000 bucks cheaper then a G2, it doesn't suffer from "noisy jacks" but neither does it suffer from dropouts at the adition of new modules or when new connections are made. It can be used with DAC's of your choice, it's in active development (unlike the G2), it supports more then 4 in and out channels (not sure about a maximum if there is one at all) unlike the G2 it has extensive OSC support it also has very good support for both Mac and Linux (admittedly the Windows version is laging somewhat) and through the use of the standard HID interface it can be intergrated with either custom sensor interfaces or the CV signals from a analogue modular. It also supports more then just 4 MIDI channels (not sure about a max but that probably depends on your OS). It's also possible to sample-acurately sync multiple instances and perhaps most importantly; custom modules can be added.
Most of those points also hold true for MAX/MSP but unlike MAX SC is free and runs on Linux and it's optimisation is heavily towards performance. _________________ Kassen |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject:
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Kassen wrote: | Erm, compared to the components brands like Serge use the NM's pots are cheap budget stuff. Just open one up and look up the component prices online. They are nicer then what many manifacturers use but certainly not high-end by any means. Also, regarding noisy jacks; Doepfer's mini jacks may crackle after a while but the G2's whole sound will drop out at each and every connection made. Comparing them isn't all this simple. |
Quite true. I still think that the Clavia modular concept should NOT be confused with an analog modular synth. A raging wall of Serge is a very bad substitution for the NM-1 and the same NM-1 is clearly not a Serge. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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bigtex
Joined: Mar 30, 2006 Posts: 323 Location: Cupertino, California
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 12:58 am Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus wrote: | When you sit down in front of your gear and start making music (or even just a lot of cool noises) what is gonna make you feel excited? That's what you should move towards. |
KNOBSSS!!!!!!!!
Maybe one day I'll get a Nord, just 'cause... but for now I want lots of knobs. I want to be surrounded by hardware. Bury me in a 19" rack-mountable coffin, baby.
I've more or less decided on starting out with Blacet stuff in a FracRak. It seems like the knee of the cool vs. cheap curve (at least for me). I'm really not pleased with the whole 1/8" plug idea.... really not pleased at all.... but there's a Serge I can go play with at the Asphodel studio when I want to. Oh, wait, that one uses 1/8" jacks too (what???)
At home, I want something that is my own, something that I find inspiring. I really like what I see in the Blacet modules. Strange stuff! Crazy ideas! The Doepfer modules are certainly plentiful and slightly cheaper, but a lot of it seems awfully vanilla. And they use 1/8" jacks too! ARG! I also like that the Blacet modules are relatively small, but pack in some great and often unique features. I would like larger knobs, but I don't have a lot of space to be setting up a really huge system like MOTM, for example. Plus, the MOTM stuff is REALLY expensive.
I'll probablby stick with 1/8" plugs on my DIY stuff, too, just to stay consistant... but I may end up doing all of that in bannana (for the stackability) and just have some 1/8" to bannana multiples scattered about. I emailed Mr. Blacet about the possibility of boring out the holes to insert bannana jacks, and he pointed me to his "Tech Corner" page with the following story:
Quote: | "As far as using 4mm banana jacks goes, because I have access to a big workshop full of metalworking tools (our family business is a bicycle repair shop) this was quite easy - firstly, I opened the jack holes up a little bit with a reamer, then I filed a little bit off the underneath of each banana socket just behind the front, so that I could slide them down a little bit once they were fully inserted so they wouldn't cover the silkscreened panel lettering. There is about a 1/2mm gap between the top of each socket and the lettering, which looks fine. The sockets themselves are similar, though not identical to the ones Serge use - they were the smallest ones I could find. I used the same colour coding as Serge use, and both panels look really nice." |
He also mentioned that several modules use switching jacks. Hrmmm. I guess I won't go to all of the extra work, and just stick with the "Tiny Telephone" jacks. Oh well. I'm sure they'll be fine, but I've never liked that style of jack/plug.
I'm also going way over my original "not more than $2000" idea... but it will be worth it. Soooo worth it. 4 FracRaks, 23 modules, nearly $4000. Ouch! I can't wait for the kits to show up. Yeah, I'm getting kits to solder together myself. Since I'm copping out on my DIY intentions and buying some pre-made stuff, I figure I should at least make myself work for it. Plus it save me some money (save money by spending money!).
Since this is likely to be my only major synth purchase ever (and by major I mean over $250.... waaaay over $250) I want to get something that will make me happy for years to come. I also want this to be flexible and agreeable with my desire for future DIY action. I'll be picking up some extra FracRak cages and panels to leave room for expansion.
Well, I guess that's all for now. I suppose I should get off to bed (1AM local time)... keeping my job is an important factor in buying this stuff!
So, thanks for all of the input, folks! |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 1:08 am Post subject:
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I suggest you should look into a couple of gain adapters. You know the kind used for piping audio out of the modular and into line level outboard like compressors and reverbs, and then back into the modular. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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