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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Klee sequencer
Super Klee Sequencer
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
BTW why don't you simply use a potmeter controlled attenuater after the step voltage summing ? Just because it would give more hassle tuning the thing ?


No, because you never mentioned it and I never thought of it Very Happy

What an excellent idea. I think we would want something stepped (switched) though, because one may bump a pot and louse up the tuning (voice of experience here). I'll give that a shot - it certainly would make the decoder much less part-thirsty.

Quote:
I would have thought that it would be more versatile to start your voltage steps lower, say 1/12V and then go for "prime?" divisions plus their multiples, so: -
1/12V
1/8V
1/6V
1/4V
1/3V
1/2V
1V
2V
4V
8V
As the voltages get added together, this gives you heaps more possible increments in voltage and still a potentially large total. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe the smell of the gum turpentine is taking it's toll!


Because then I would have to work out the resistor values Very Happy

Again, an excellent idea. 8 octaves for a single bit sequencer would be respectable enough - Jan may be able to confirm if those smaller values are useful values, I think they would be. Right now, I don't have 16 pots on the breadboard.

Could be, in fact, we could cut out two of those values and go for 8 - maybe get rid of 1/3 & 1/6. This would allow a rotary controlling an 8->1 mux like a 4051 to select the attenuation. That means voltages as tiny as 1/12 volt wouldn't have to travel up to the panel and back, but just make a small little jump from the 4051 to a buffer. If one really wanted to get fairly precise, a trimpot for each value could be put in to make the voltages exact - that might make some nice translation from one range selection to the other.

So, apply Jan's post pot attenuator, with Uncle K's voltage list (edited down to 8 values) using a mux to switch the attenuation values - what say ye all?

Cheers,
Scott
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm....maybe keep 1/6V - that's too useful looking. Dang - decisions, decisions. If anything, two muxes could be used, and one could just have some unused inputs.

The Decoder Incident is going to be anticlimactic after all of this.
Very Happy

G'Night.
Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott,
I thought you had a CV quantizer....
Quote:
The Decoder Incident is going to be anticlimactic after all of this.

No,but i think you just found the hidden tuning monster.Possibly a longer battle than you envisioned.
I did run a copy of the Catgirl gated comparator alongside the klees as the tuning device,but it only worked somewhat.
Having written this,knowing you,the problem will be solved today Smile

Robert
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Robert,

No hidden tuning monster here - just looking for a smaller mousetrap, but if it's too small to catch the mouse, I'll use the original, which is already on schemo Very Happy

Cheerio,
Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1/6th is just a multiple of 1/12.
So if it were me I'd keep 1/8.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Though an on-board quantizer could be added. External would work as well.

Cheers,
Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Added a G2 demo friendly experimental patch based upon all the above, very much stripped down. See http://electro-music.com/forum/post-90463.html , no busses etc., just a 16 pot 16 stage Kle with auto feedback/random selection.

I included a little frog licking demo of it as well (with some settings that I lost later), as this seems to be a tradition with this kind of sequencer Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds like the bassline from 'Popcorn'- on ACID! Shocked Laughing Cool
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent Frog Lick! Thanks for that!

How many pots did you have going with that?

Last night, on the drive home, I recalled your mention of inversion of the input of the shift register. The thought occurred to me that if one strategically placed an XOR on the input of each shift register IC, a high applied to the opposite pin would invert - easily done by adding (even more) switches. This could be used to invert the action of the gate busses, too. A later model Klee, I suppose.

I've finished a rough draft of the decoder with the changes discussed. For now, I just left it at 8 voltage selections, but a CD4067 could increase that number.

The voltages I chose out of the Krunkuvolts were:

1/12 - because this is a half step increment. Mixing together would cover all possible notes. High bit density sequences would work well with it. Max note range with all bits high would be 8 whole steps.

1/6 - because this is a whole step increment. Mixing together would create whole step only sequences. Max note range with all bits high would be 16 whole steps - around 2.5 octaves, all cranked.

1/4 - because this is a half step and a whole step - would be like 1/12, but with an expanded frequency range. A bit over 3 Octave max range.

1/2V - because it's a half octave. 8 Octaves with all bits high and all pots cranked.

1V - whole octave range - would peak out at around 15 octaves with everything cranked.

2V - two octaves range per pot.

4V - four octaves range per pot.

8V - eight octaves range per pot.

Now, the idea is, on the small increments, if one wanted to, one could simply crank selected pots to max and get those increments. Of course the range on all of the the above is 0V - RangeV. And, of course, the ranges also serve to make tuning easier. The higher ranges will be more useful, generally, for 'normal' sequencing, or low bit density Klee sequences.

Problem I'm working out with the draft now is that I'm wondering if a buffer should go before each divider. Adds a few quad op amps, but looking at it, without buffers, one op amp output has 8 resistors to ground in parallel with the output - might be too much juice to expect out of an op amp. A resistor string could be made, but that would pretty much kill any idea of trimming for reasonable accuracy. Right now each divider is a resistor and a trim pot. Easy enough to trim - flip one bit on, crank its pot and tune the trimmer for the expected max voltage at that range. Click to the next range, and repeat, etc. The small increment ranges could be accurately tuned using a V/Oct VCO. Tune the first range for 1/2 step up, the next range for 1 step up, etc. This would eliminate the need for a multi-digit DMM.

Cheerio,
Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All this talk about shift registers inspired me to patch up a little patch. You can find it here: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-13453.html

I took the SR outputs and put them into a ADC and then used that to control a 16 step Control Sequencer. This gives you the trigger bus and if you want, you can use the Control Sequencer to set the pitches associated with each value.

It should work on the G2 demo program for those that don't have a G2.

Shift Registers are more fun that a barrel of monkies. (Stupid expression, but I can't think of anything better at this time.)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I´m totaly overvelmed by this post! A few days ago i finally had the time to read through all of this, understanding 1/3, ordering the shift registers.
Now some days have passed and this post has grown, so now i understand 1/5.
Anyway, Scott, this is so cool! The original first klee is really great, especially because it only needs 4 pots to play till infinity.
When the parts arrive and i learn from the early klee stages, maybe someday i´ll be able to follow up to this, hopefully.
This is like no other sequencer i know of.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi ZipZap,

Mosc is right - shift registers should have just been named monkey barrels when they were first invented Very Happy

The four pots is the beauty of the original Klee. Of course, I've managed to really throw that out the window with this one, but the pattern programability and gate bus make it worth it as a more ambitious project.

Cheerio,
Scott
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey this reminds me of the first idea i had about how to DAC the matrix-scanning keyboard casio conversion i worked out. my first idea was to use
2 4051 8-1 mux/demuxes. one of which was to handle 1/12v steps, and the other would do 8/12v [because the 4051 is 8-1] steps. the voltages were derived from a current source/resistor ladder, adjusted accordingly..

JOSH
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My feeble brain can't get around deriving the voltages out of a single string and still being able to cal each one exactly with this setup, so I have eight individual dividers and an Excel spread sheet to calculate the values.

The Decoder Incident post should wait til I try this stuff out, then I'll post the final schematic and documentation, then go for Model 3.

I toyed with a cursory panel layout - Model 2 is quite a handful, but can fit on a 4U tall rack panel with reasonable spacing of controls.

Only thing I've done this week is add lag. I thought about a lag selectable between expo and linear, but I'm trying to keep controls to a minimum on Model 2, so I've settled on two linear lags, one for each voltage out (there are two output voltages - makes things much more interesting). I selected linear, because it just sounded so much betten than expo.

There's also a V/Oct input for external control either by a keyboard or another sequencer, and a modulation input. I've also put in a coarse and fine offset for the output, so one can use these controls to shift/tune the composite output. That's one handy thing about Ray's sample and hold that I always liked - the ability to offset the output without having to tie up a mixer.

Cheers,
Scott
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This weekend I've decided to confirm my schematics - IE, rebuild the Model 2 completely from the schematics I've drawn. This is a good process for shaking out any bugs that may have accumulated during the initial breadboarding and first round of schematics.

It's a good thing I did - I discovered two mistakes on the Clock and Load schematic. The schematic uses the first section of U3 twice. The second mistake is C14 is tied to ground instead of +V - that one really threw me for a loop for a bit there. I'll fix the schemo and upload it as version 1.01 to episode 1. Everything else worked out fine when breadboarding straight from schematic.

Clock and Load, the Encoder, and the Gate Bus are all singing along happily on one breadboard. Tomorrow I'm going to work out the final version of the decoder, and Model 2 will be in the can.

I've decided to add output LEDs to the gate bus - it helps to get a visual on what each bus is doing. That, and the display is mesmerising. I'm thinking of adding a function to the uncommitted half of the LM358 on the encoder. If one turns that into a pulse and makes SW17 on Clock and Load SPDT, one could have a position that randomly reloaded the Klee pattern. It's just an extra cap, with no added panel overhead.

I've also been considering trying a reduced part version of the Gate Bus. I think it could be squeezed down to six ICs from nine without losing any functionality. That will come later - I want to work out the final version of the decoder tomorrow.

Cheerio,
Scott
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

More fun than a pant full of ferrets! Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Progress and a weird bump in the road this weekend:

Had to dissassemble the Klee breadboard to make room for the decoder (the new Clock And Load, Encoder, and Gate bus were put on my other large breadboard). Took forever to remove the cluster of alligator leads and wires that had grown up around it just to remove it from the archipelago.

After clearing the breadboard off, and just after I laid the row of 16 trimpots that will simulate panel mounted pots, the thought occurred to me that scaling the output with an attenuator will not work as intended. The reason is this - if the output is scaled so that, when a pot is at full range, it is putting out the .083V of a half step, the original voltage will still be the 14.5V or so the shift register is putting out. That would work OK for a 'normal' sequencer, but not the Klee. Once another bit becomes active, its voltage is intended to mix with the voltage of any other active bit. If two pots are railed, that would add up to a required 29V to scale down to the .166V desired at the output. Of course, this is never going to happen, because the mixing op amp is going to rail. You'll never get greater than .083V out of the Klee sequence, no matter how many bits are active.

We can still get the voltage range selections, but the voltage is going to have to be scaled before mixing. So, back to plan A - each bit of the shift register will be dedicated to the control input of a CD4066 cell. A reference voltage will be scaled and fed to the input of the CD4066, and the output of the 4066 will be mixed with the output of all the other 4066 cells. That will require 4 CD4066s in all. I've got that section breadboarded and 16 pots. Things came up and I wasn't able to get to the voltage scaler.

Not to say the breadboarding went totally smoothly, there was the one glitch with C14 that still has me scratching my head. Perhaps someone can shed some light:

First of all, the original schematic has C14 tied to ground, which actually is the normal method of debouncing a switch. This switch is used to step the sequence forward one step each time its pressed. In this case, I could press the switch once, it would advance, twice it would advance, and around the third time or so, the entire flipping circuit would go absolutely nuts - 15V would suck down very, very low - mebbe 2V or so. To make a very long a painful story short, I finally had to disconnect both CD4034s to make things not go terribly wrong. I noticed that the second CD4034 would get very hot, not a good sign. Anyway, amongst my ministrations, I tied the capacitor high, and all troubles went away, and, oddly enough, the sequencer worked just fine stepping manually that way.

It wasn't until later, when re-doing the schematic, it just didn't look right - I don't think the 'modified' configuration is going to debounce at all.

Now, once I had everything together and working, I noticed again the second CD4034 still wasn't exactly right - its first bit on parallel load was stuck permanently high. It would shift just fine, but that first bit would never go low when it was told to go low on a parallel load. I'd never noticed before, because my initial test run had that particular bit tied high. I swapped it out, and the second CD4034 has worked just fine ever since. Now, (A) the original CD4034 was damaged when it got all hot and toasty or (B) it was defective from the get-go when I first put it in circuit (it was the first time I'd used it - the other two CD4034s were on the original breadboard).

I'm certain I had that capacitor tied low on the original - of course, I yanked that cap out of the original breadboard just to be sure I had a good cap, so that wiped out all proof, but I'm certain it was. So, I'm thinking bad CD4034. But what in the hell would cause things to pull 15V low when the event was so far upstream in the circuit? Anyone got a clue?

Hmmm....one thing I did have different, for testing, was that I had all but one parallel input bit tied to ground and the first bit tied high straight to +15 - maybe the CD4034 doesn't like that kind of twitching around when a parallel input is tied directly to the positive rail. That's not the Klee wiring, BTW, it was just for expedient testing - Klee uses pull-up resistors there.

I'll have to go back and put that cap in the initial position and see what happens now the CD4034 has been replaced. I'm holding off on rev 1.01 of Clock and Load til I try. That's a hard thing to bring myself to do, because everything is working perfectly now.....

Cheers,
Scott
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tricky little er....swines.
I had a problem with ultra-hot HEF40106BPs as lfos.They are alright down at 5V supply with a dedicated 7805.
Robert
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
If two pots are railed, that would add up to a required 29V[...]


Embarassed

Should have realized that, will have to alter my G2 patches as well - I'm short a factor four on headroom, worst case.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Should have realized that


Me, too. It just never occurred to me, to be honest.


Quote:
Tricky little er....swines.


Indeed. I figured out what caused it, more or less. Tonight, after I got home, I flew to the breadboard and put the cap back in the original position. Then I tried it again. One pulse, fine, two pulses fine, three pulses (dimming of LED's, loud cursing from human operator).

Then the thought occurred to me - it wasn't *exactly* like the original breadboard. The wire I'm using to simulate the switch is at the 'top' of the breadboard. To simulate a switch, I just ground one wire and tap it against the exposed end of the other wire - a good, worst case scenario for debouncing, if ever there was one. Now, with this wire being at the top of the breadboard, the closest ground to it was the horizontal power ground strip above it. From this horizontal strip, all grounds 'star' out from it on their vertical busses. Well, I had my ground for the switch planted on the main power ground. I moved it over to the adjacent vertical ground bus, which is connected to the main power ground by a jumper. From this bus, the switch worked exactly as expected - no problems whatsoever. The merest inductance/capacitance of that one wire connecting the vertical to the horizontal was enough to prevent whatever the hell was going on from going on. I then returned back to the main power bus, coupled the ground wire through a 100R resistor, and it worked just fine. Best explanation I can think of is don't tie grounding switches right at the power ground input, star them out. In this case the switch is going mount on the panel, and chance of it being right at power ground entry is zero. Unless, of course, you're an idiot like me.

Anyway, the breadboard is working just peachy. The gate bus is really the schnitz. I've uploaded a sample of it, another promo for the Krunkite Bikini and Implement, Ltd.'s latest product - a naughahide, ferret lined thong.

Two VCO's being controlled by the Klee. One through the 2040 filter, the other through the dual MS-20 filter, with their respective EG's controlled by various gates and triggers supplied by the Klee gate bus.

Cheerio,
Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gak! Just listened to it. What a lousy sample for figuring out what the gate bus is doing. What was I thinking? I'll upload something a bit more expository tonight. Something with sine waves.

Today I hope to upload the corrected version of Clock and Load (just putting the right OR gate section in, a 'clerical' issue). I've got the schematic laid out for the Decoder, but I don't have any values yet for the voltage level dividers on it. A 'lost' episode will have to be played, Episode 5 - for the actual CV mixer section itself. Ran out of room on the Decoder schematic.

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Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well no sine waves - had to kill Nauhgahide Thong to upload this sample (hitting the max on uploaded files). This one is the same patch, though a different pattern and pot settings. Not best content-wise, but it's a bit more expository of what the gate bus does.

Again, two VCO's, 2040 and late MS-20 filters, two EG's controlled by the gate bus, processing the Klee output, no overdubs, etc.

I use the gate and trigger outputs of different busses to drive the EG. One EG is triggered by Bus 3 and gated by Bus 1, while the other Eg is triggered by the master trigger out and gated by bus 2. I add and remove the signals as the sample progresses, which lends variation to the one sequence that's constantly cycling. I also am controlling one VCO with the keyboard in addition to the Klee, and that VCO is also intermittently processed by the lag circuit of the Klee. The final Klee page will have external modulation and an extra CV input (like the ARP sequencer had) which is really handy to have.

Sample also promotes a new Krunite lingerie item as well....

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/toadskin_teddy.mp3

Various faces of Klee sequence illuminated by gate bus outputs, best listened to whilst wearing hallucinogenic nightwear.

Last edited by Scott Stites on Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very nice!
Which of these schems is the most "carved in stone", just in case I feel like starting the stripboard version in between building the Sorcerer?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice track Scott. I can almost visualize a three eyed stripper dancing to it.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I can almost visualize a three eyed stripper dancing to it.


Three eyed stripper in toadskin teddy - sweeeet.......

Uncle K - everything posted so far is what is breadboarded, and has been confirmed working. I'd like to try reducing the gate bus parts count a bit while preserving the functionality - I'm thinking quads on the comparators (LM324 mebbe) to reduce 4 IC's to two, which will cut down two ICs, and eliminating the two inverter stages that feed the NAND on Bus 1, Bus 2 and the Master bus - could be it'll work fine without those. If it does, that would eliminate one CD40106, which would overall reduce the circuit by three ICs. But, as it is, it works just fine. I do need to add the gate display LEDs.

Clock and Load and the Encoder are pretty much set in stone. Any feature creep (primarily, if one wanted a switch to select between two 8 stage sections and one 16 stage section would be off-board, anyway).

Here is a preview of the Decoder - it's subject to change, and I don't have any values for determining the different voltages yet. Everything on the right side (the 4066 stages, resistors and pots) are in place on the breadboard.

Cheerio,
Scott

Edit: Forgot to mention, I uploaded a corrected version of Clock and Load to Episode 1.

Edit 2: Diagram Deleted - current version posted downstream in this thread.

Last edited by Scott Stites on Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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