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cheap and easy cv quantizer
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mr Krunkus, i´m glad to have a uncle like you!
I held it high (like in mr sites schematic - stuff like this happens...)
Seems like we have some counting now.

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So it clocks and it counts, but the steps are again a bit mixed up.
The stair climbes up, jumps back a little and continues.
Maybe some of the connections to the dac are mixed up?
I think i did everything like in the schematic, except for the pin5 to ground.

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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ZipZap,

My extreme apologies - the pin 5 held high is not the only mistake.

On the CD4516s Express PCB had the pins exactly backward of what I needed to make the schematic less complicated, and I re-arranged the pins wrongly - look at the order of Q4 through Q1 on the outputs of the CD4516s - wrong!

Swap pins 2 and 14 on each 4516 - otherwise you'll get what you're getting. Sorry about that Embarassed

Don't know what I was smoking the day I posted *that*.

Cheers,
Scott
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi scott!
Thanks, nothing to worry! Between 100 mindblasting cool schematics there must be one or two bugs Confused Keeps things interesting. I´m glad to hear of that easy solution! Stuff like this happens and it´s good we found it!
What´s kind of funny is that the original shematic with the 4024 had the same misstakes, "implemented" different.

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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi again.

I've posted the correction as a JPG on my site - don't have access to the original PDF stuff to do the PDF over.

Here's the link to the corrected schematic:

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/quant_DAC_corrected.jpg

Once again, my apologies for putting you through that (thank you and Uncle K for pointing them out).

Cheers,
Scott
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fonik



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi scott,

after all that time i am back on your quantizer and i wonder how i could test the staircase without a scope? my plan was to lower the frequency of the clock (replacing the 100pF by 100n) and hook the staircase generator to a VCO and listen - would this work? what voltage should i expect on the output of he clock? any help and suggestions are appreciated...

cheers,
matthias
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Matthias,

Yes, lowering the clock frequency would probably work - it obviously would have to be lowered quite a bit. The output of the clock will swing between 0 and a little under +15V. Once you're sure it's stepping correctly, just build one channel and see if you can tune it up and get it working. Just feed it a voltage, and adjust it so that you can hear the step up - just tune it for 0.083333333333333333 volts per step, of if your DMM doesn't have that much resolution, 0.083V Very Happy After that, you can fine tune it by ear if it needs it.

Cheers,
Scott
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi together.
Yes, thats how i did this. Got a new scope, since my old one is now in circuit hevan (it´ll be a cool housing for something new, though. Have to do some measurements, but till now it seems like my steps are only half the sice they should be... more later.

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Coriolis



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott, I was thinking about your 10 octave quantizer again: To decrease the range, couldn't one insert an offset voltage, or rather, mix it with the output of a sequencer for instance? A pot could be used on the offset voltage to dial in the range.

Coming to think of it, there would be 2 problems with that method, if I'm not mistaken:
-It would only cut the low end of the range, and not allowing to cut the extremely high octaves.
-If running an 8 step sequence, and the first 7 steps are below the limit set by the offset pot, those 7 steps would be inaudible, right?

There, I shot down my own idea! Laughing

Never mind then... Wink

C
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Coriolis,

I think when I was speaking of decreasing the range, I don't think I was...um...thinking right. Really, the best way to do it would be to constrict the voltage one is sending it, say with a sequencer or the like.

I think. Been on a biz trip, a real humdinger this one was.

Cheerios,
Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Forgot to ask - ZipZap - did you figure out what was happening with the steps?
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

not really. I wish i had more time right now... for my projects, for the forum.
Well, at least i got a new (old) scope. It looks as that there are 12 steps within a volt. That´s good. Don´t know, maybe my vcos track theat badly, cause i thougt i heared much less than halfsteps.
The dac outputs a rising stair. After some volts it stops (have to look how many volts) and continues for a while as an continuos line. Like if it´s clipped. Then it starts over. Maybe that´s normal.
Another thing that´s strange is that the stair is bleeding through the comparator a lot.
i´m afraid thats all for now, as soon as i´m able to describe the whole thing a little better i´m sure we´ll find a solution. Propably a stupid funny solution. Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hope it's not another jerko mistake on the schematic. I did have a problem on bleedthrough of the comparators - that's why the schematic uses only a single side of each dual comparator. The idea originally was to keep the parts count down, but once the problem with using both sides of each comparator showed up.....well, you can tell it's no longer a low parts count design. Using just one section of each comparator really worked very well, though.

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Scott
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fonik



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sigh.... i don't get it working... Rolling Eyes
i have no scope so i replaced the cap in the clock circuit from 100pF to 47n to slow the circuit down and connect the DAC output to a VCO checking the staircase by listening.
the DAC outputs constant 9.74V. so i checked the voltages at the bit inputs pin5-11: they're all high (15V) except pin10 (bit6).
that lead me to the conclusion, that the circuit stucks. i checked the clock in at the CD4516s and there are only 0.03V.
i use a CD40106 (powered 15V to GND) for the schmitt triggers. may that cause the oscillator not to oscillate?
what kind of cock signal does the CD4516 need? does the pulse length matter? has it to go through zero?

any comments or help appreciated

cheers,drunken
matthias
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Matthias,

That cap value should give you a square wave around 205 Hz, if you kept the resistor values the same as the schematic. A CD40106 will work there. The CD4516s expect to see a square wave input at around 0 to 15V). The voltage supply to the CD40106 is right (should be 15V and ground).

Make sure all of the unused inputs of the CD40106 are tied either high or low (I usually keep them tied low when I'm not using them). This can cause bizarro behaviour. Leave any unused outputs with no connection.

Make sure you've downloaded the corrected schematic (it's a JPG apart from the PDF) - I had the CD4516s wired so they'd never count. That doesn't sound like the problem you're having at the moment, though - sounds like the CD40106 isn't oscillating. You might disconnect it from the CD4516s for the time being and see if you can't make it oscillate, then connect back up and go from there.

Good luck and cheers,
Scott
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Fonik,
You did see the earlier post about holding pin 5 low didn't you?
Just thought I'd check.

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fonik



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
You did see the earlier post about holding pin 5 low didn't you? Just thought I'd check.


yes, i did and i use the latest schem (the jpg).
thanks for taking care...
i'll try to get the oscillator oscillate first and then step forward.

cheers,drunken
matthias
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe you could improvise a scope with your computer's audio inputs ?

Some resistors to get the voltage into range, maybe a buffer opamp.

A thing I used to use in my early days was a high impedance piezo electric earphone, so I could find audio oscilations in circuits - don't know if those still exist nowadays. Ah yes they do.

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fonik



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's not that easy... i didn't get the 40106 to oscillate! i tied all inputs to ground an let the outputs open. no change. i tried different ICs and different parts of the ICs. no change. i tried different caps and checked the resistor values. no change! strange, isn't it? then i gave up for that part and tested the DAC, connecting it's output directly to an VCO.
the CD4516 seem to work correctly, they switch if i shorten the clock (pins 15). and the DAC seems to go upwards but not in steps.
i attached two MP3s. the 2nd is the output of the circuit with no clock connected. the 1st is the output of the circuit clocked by the LFO...
sounds funny, but i can't imagine what it could be. there're no resistors or caps on the breadboard just the ICs.

any comments appreciated, i really don't know how to fix that and i do have a need in a quantizer!

cheers,
matthias
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Matthias,

I'm the world's worst listen-to-this-and-figure-out-what's-happening kind of guy. Would it be possible to take a digital snapshot of it and PM me with it? Sometimes I can spot stuff, sometimes not Very Happy

Weird that the CD40106 won't oscillate, but then, the weirdest stuff I get on breadboard invariably involves CMOS.

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Scott
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just open the mp3 with Soundforge if you want to look at the wave. I did, but I can't work out what the problem might be. Still haven't done anything with DACs. Crying or Very sad
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fonik



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

here are some pics and a quicktime movie. it's the same setting as before, the circuit is locked by an external LFO (A-146). i used a softscope (freeware) and i don't know how to use it, so don't ask me about the settings!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Embarassed Meant to say a digital pic of the breadboard.

But, that's OK, we've got some semblance of a scope here, we can sort of break things down and analyze what's going on. Right now, I can't figure out what that DAC is trying to do - there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the output (haven't seen the movie yet, though).

OK, the counters are supposed to count from 0000000 (decimal 0) to 1111111 (decimal 127) so that's a total of 128 steps, or a bit over 10 octaves. Each time the count increases one bit, the DAC voltage should go up by a certain increment (in the end, when the circuit's working, the DAC will increase by 0.083 mV each time the count increments, or 1/2 step in a V/Oct system). So, as the counters increase in count, the DAC should stairstep up til it hits its max voltage at count 1111111, and the counters roll over back to 0000000. So, stairstep up, a straight drop down, then stairstep up again. In other words, the output of the DAC should repeat and be uniform with every iteration of the count from 0000000 to 1111111.

Now, I've never used a software scope, but as I understand it, your soundcard is most likely AC coupled. If this is the case, that is going to affect how things look a bit. If it were DC coupled, a normal DAC stairstep would start at 0V climb up to around 10V then drop straight back down to 0V. If it's AC coupled, the input capacitor of your sound card will remove the DC component, so it'll look like it's starting negative and going positive. It will also slew straight vertical lines to some degree.

One thing that concerns me is that, if I understand your previous post correctly, the first sound file was recorded with no clock driving the CD4516s. If this is the case, they should not have been counting, and their outputs should have been static - IE, not changing in level. In other words, they would be fixed at some count, likely 0000000. In any event, if the count is not incrementing, then the DAC should put out a fixed voltage - it shouldn't be moving around.

One other concern, not being familiar with the LFO you're using, is that the CD4516s should only be driven from a 0 to +V signal. If that signal drops a diode gap below 0V (beyond -0.6 or -0.7V), the CD4516, or any CMOS for that matter, is not going to appreciate it and can potentially fry or become inoperative. Normally, one can get rid of any negative voltage by connecting the input signal through a diode, or putting a diode to ground - anything to stop negative voltages from hitting that fussy CMOS input. One other pretty important thing - the clock signal must be a very fast rising pulse - really, really fast. IE, a very square pulse. Otherwise, CMOS tends to get wishy-washy, and some devices will even overheat like Forbidden Planet's Robby the Robot when told to do harm to a human (reference Uncle K's previous logo before he turned into the terminator).

You probably know all of this already, I'm just laying out some common ground to go on here.

So, let's see if those CD4516s are really kicking out a decent count. That's pretty easy to do. Each output of each counter progressively halves in frequency the higher you go in bit position. And, oh great, I left out the ref des's of the counters. Dang. I suck. OK, the bottom counter on the schematic is the one that's going to be booking the fastest.

Q1, which is pin 6 of that bottom counter, will be the fastest trucking bit of them all. Take a look at the waveform on it. It should be a very fast pulse going from 0 to 15V (this may not look like 0 to 15V if your scope is AC coupled, which is fine - we're just looking to see if *anything* is coming out).

OK, if you see a signal coming out of pin 6, Q1, then let's look at pin 11, Q2. This signal should be exactly half the frequency of the signal on Pin 6.

Then move to pin 14, which is Q3 of the count. This will be moving at half the frequency of the signal at pin 11 (Q2) and 1/4 the frequency of the signal at pin 6 (Q1).

Move to Q4 (Pin 2) - again, half the frequency of Q3. That's all the bits on that counter, now move to the 'top' counter on the schematic - Q1 of that counter will be half the frequency of Q4 on the previous counter. Then on down the line.

Don't worry about counting the frequency so much - just move on down the line of the 'Q' outputs - the pulse waveform will look progressively wider and wider as you move from Q1 of the bottom counter through Q3 (the last bit) on the top counter. This will tell us that your counters are alive and kicking.

Then check to see if they're going to the right pins on the DAC, and that the signals are showing up at those pins on the DAC.

With your DMM, check to see what your reference voltage is on pin 3 of the DAC.

Let's check that stuff out and move on from there. Good luck!

Cheers,
Scott
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fonik



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
One other concern, not being familiar with the LFO you're using, is that the CD4516s should only be driven from a 0 to +V signal. If that signal drops a diode gap below 0V (beyond -0.6 or -0.7V), the CD4516, or any CMOS for that matter, is not going to appreciate it and can potentially fry or become inoperative.

Shocked didn't know that!
thanks for all your suggestions, they're all highly appreciated. thanks for taking care. i will check these thing out tomorrow.

thanks again....

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject:
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it's weird, the DAC seems to be okay, outputs constant voltage with no 4516s connected, ref voltage 5V.
the 4516s are the problem, they count erratically with no clock connected either! ( i tried different ICs!). Shocked
meanwhile i quatruplechecked the wiring so i think it's the breadboard!? next step would be to try it on a veroboard...

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