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 Forum index » How-tos » Micro Tuning
The End of Common Practice
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gravehill



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are about 3500 known scales, only one of them (and its modes obviously) can be reproduced with the black keys.

Personally, I'm not 100% sure what to think of the issue of different temperaments, scales and microtonality in general. It sure is interesting to explore them but most often the problem is that if the listener of the piece is not used to hearing anything else than equal tempered scales, they will all sound somehow "wrong" to him/her. Interesting concept but in real life somewhat limited.

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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
I've always thought that all scales of the world included each other

no, you couldn't, for example, approximate the sound of an indonesian gamelan on a piano tuned in 12 equal divisions of the octave.
the history of music could be thought of as the research about all the possible ways to organize the "sound continuum". Different cultures in different periods of time have devised very different solutions to this problem and each one, I would say, excludes all the other ones.
Antimon wrote:
you can argue whether scale distinctions exist in nature (the ear) or inside the intellect (the brain)

ear and brain are both parts of the same apparatus of perception. the physical event is one thing, its perception is a completely different matter.

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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gravehill wrote:
if the listener of the piece is not used to hearing anything else than equal tempered scales, they will all sound somehow "wrong" to him/her. Interesting concept but in real life somewhat limited.

art history has, very often, been written by those who have moved ahead of average sensibility.
it depends on the context too: if you play a microtonal melody with a piano sound (that you expect to be equally tempered) it may sound much more wrong than if you play the same melody with an exotic flute sound (that you do not expect to be, necessarily, equally tempered).

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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, if you use scales and tempos, that's still common practice IMHO. So the serialist are are common practice, but this may not be - at least most of it.

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-343.html

(It starts out with notes played on a keyboard as a point of departure.) I suspect that in the future this will sound very conventional.

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seraph
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Well, if you use scales and tempos, that's still common practice IMHO.

your concept of "common practice" is very wide Wink I would tend to disagree because there are only 12 common notes. everything else is very uncommon Cool

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, 12 notes per octave and tempos.

So 1/4 tone tunings are not common practice then. My favorite in this department is Conlon Nancarrow.

Listen to this excellent radio program... http://www.archive.org/details/ConlonNancarrowOdeToGravity

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for the link Howard Very Happy
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bachus



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just got a copy of "A History of Key Characteristics in the Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth centuries" by inter-library loan. So far I've just scanned through it but it appears to be very thorough. Seraph, have you read this?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Seraph, have you read this?

I was waiting for you to tell me if it's worth its price Wink actually, digesting Tuning by Jorgenson is going to take a long while Very Happy

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bachus



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
bachus wrote:
Seraph, have you read this?

I was waiting for you to tell me if it's worth its price Wink

Glad to Laughing

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

read the Glossary of Music Tuning Definitions by X.J.Scott Exclamation
at least read about: Acompositia, Scale Fetishism and Tuning Psychosis
the guy is a genius Exclamation

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bachus



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
read the Glossary of Music Tuning Definitions by X.J.Scott Exclamation
at least read about: Acompositia, Scale Fetishism and Tuning Psychosis
the guy is a genius Exclamation


But dang! I want a L'il Miss' Scale Oven and it only comes for the mac

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seraph
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I want a L'il Miss' Scale Oven and it only comes for the mac

LMSO is a beautiful piece of software but anyway, go to http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/english/ (a fantastic web site)
click on "links" and go down to " Software Free- or shareware" to see what's available. I would suggest Scala
a great free application. the de-facto standard for microtuning.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
bachus wrote:
Seraph, have you read this?

I was waiting for you to tell me if it's worth its price Wink actually, digesting Tuning by Jorgenson is going to take a long while Very Happy


OK here it is:

Steblin’s A History of Key Characteristics in the Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries would be better titled A History of Arguments Over Key Characteristics in the Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries. I must confess that I read only the first three the sixth and the last chapters and skimmed the rest. It seemed to hold interest for the music historian but little for the composer.

Basically Western theorists have forever been divided into those who believe that inherent key characteristics do not exist and those who believe they do. And among the later group there is precious little agreement over what those characteristics are though there was some convergence of opinion in the 19th century both as to their reality and quality.

Steblin wrote:
The early nineteenth century witnessed the birth of historical musicology and with it an increased awareness of the music and ideas of the past. This sense of history has several important ramifications for the topic in question. For one thing, the arguments of J.J. Rousseau and Kirnberger continued to be cited even though changing conditions invalidated them. Also descriptive lists from the past began to have a tangible influence on new lists: many theorists copied word for word from these older sources. Schubart’s images in particular were repeated so often that they became a well established tradition in their own right. And now that a repertory of famous classic masterworks had become established, illustrative examples were chosen to verify traditional key traits. This in effect became practical “proof” that these traits were indeed “innate” in the keys.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks bachus Very Happy
I trust you so I guess I'll pass this one up Wink

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
But on a more technical note... Open Sound Control is a lot better equipped than MIDI to handle temperaments. In SuperCollider I can write a custom function to convert a note number into a frequency and implement any tuning I want. SC also allows fractional MIDI note numbers (69.midicps == 440, 69.5.midicps == 452.89298412314, 70.midicps == 466.16376151809) which is very nice. Max/MSP, PD, Reaktor also accept OSC.

So, what if Logic communicated with OSC-enabled softsynths using OSC and allowed you to edit with fractional note numbers, or apply a temperament table to the MIDI data?

I'm not holding my breath...

James


I found this post while searching the forum for info on anyone using OSC-enabled softsynths.

Yes, I've been curious if an adapter had been found to bridge between OSC and Logic.

My recently gained understanding of OSX's Core Audio system is that all Audio Units are required to respond to both the regular MIDI API and what some developers call the "Extended Note" API. The Extended Note API includes a "base note" field which is 32-bits. One byte is used for MIDI Note Number. The other 3 are used for fractional pitch.

According to Numerology's developer, few AUs respond to fractional pitch - most just round to the nearest whole MIDI Note Number. But Logic's internal synths all fully implement both APIs.

Unfortunately, neither API supports more than 8-bit resultion for MIDI Velocity.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Just got a copy of "A History of Key Characteristics in the Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth centuries" by inter-library loan. So far I've just scanned through it but it appears to be very thorough. Seraph, have you read this?

No, I trusted your advice but I'm reading "Music and the Power of Sound: The Influence of Tuning and Interval on Consciousness" by Alain Daniélou. it's an interesting one.

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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
... but I'm reading "Music and the Power of Sound: The Influence of Tuning and Interval on Consciousness" by Alain Daniélou. it's an interesting one.


Oh, please post your thoughts on it when you get through reading it.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
seraph wrote:
... but I'm reading "Music and the Power of Sound: The Influence of Tuning and Interval on Consciousness" by Alain Daniélou. it's an interesting one.


Oh, please post your thoughts on it when you get through reading it.


Alain Daniélou wrote:
In general the reasoning of Western scholars in relation to music could be summarized as follows: The Western Scale is not correct according to the laws of physics or mathematics, but, being used by Westeners, it is superior to all others. Since it is in contradiction with physical laws, it must therefore be the expression of some superior psychic law, still unknown to us, but which is the measure of genius and progress.


I am not through reading it. It could take me years to digest it but it's an "adorable" book nonetheless Very Happy
Isn't that quote sweet Question

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