electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » News... » Miscellaneous News
Free Speech Zones!
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 2 [38 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Author Message
Michael Chocholak



Joined: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 305
Location: Cove, Oregon, USA
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject: Free Speech Zones! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry this is so long, but I lost the original url;

How the Secret Service Protects Bush from Free Speech
James Bovard
Sunday, January 4, 2004
C2004 San Francisco Chronicle

When President Bush travels around the United States, the Secret Service visits the location ahead of time and orders local police to set up "free speech zones" or "protest zones," where people opposed to Bush policies (and sometimes sign-carrying supporters) are quarantined. These zones routinely succeed in keeping protesters out of presidential sight and outside the view of media covering the event.

When Bush went to the Pittsburgh area on Labor Day 2002, 65-year-old retired steel worker Bill Neel was there to greet him with a sign proclaiming, "The Bush family must surely love the poor, they made so many of us."

The local police, at the Secret Service's behest, set up a "designated free-speech zone" on a baseball field surrounded by a chain-link fence a third of a mile from the location of Bush's speech.

The police cleared the path of the motorcade of all critical signs, but folks with pro-Bush signs were permitted to line the president's path. Neel refused to go to the designated area and was arrested for disorderly conduct; the police also confiscated his sign.

Neel later commented, "As far as I'm concerned, the whole country is a free-speech zone. If the Bush administration has its way, anyone who criticizes them will be out of sight and out of mind."

At Neel's trial, police Detective John Ianachione testified that the Secret Service told local police to confine "people that were there making a statement pretty much against the president and his views" in a so-called free- speech area.

Paul Wolf, one of the top officials in the Allegheny County Police Department, told Salon that the Secret Service "come in and do a site survey, and say, 'Here's a place where the people can be, and we'd like to have any protesters put in a place that is able to be secured.' "

Pennsylvania District Judge Shirley Rowe Trkula threw out the disorderly conduct charge against Neel, declaring, "I believe this is America. Whatever happened to 'I don't agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'?"

Similar suppressions have occurred during Bush visits to Florida. A recent St. Petersburg Times editorial noted, "At a Bush rally at Legends Field in 2001, three demonstrators -- two of whom were grandmothers -- were arrested for holding up small handwritten protest signs outside the designated zone. And last year, seven protesters were arrested when Bush came to a rally at the USF Sun Dome. They had refused to be cordoned off into a protest zone hundreds of yards from the entrance to the Dome."

One of the arrested protesters was a 62-year-old man holding up a sign, "War is good business. Invest your sons." The seven were charged with trespassing, "obstructing without violence and disorderly conduct."

Police have repressed protesters during several Bush visits to the St. Louis area as well. When Bush visited on Jan. 22, 150 people carrying signs were shunted far away from the main action and effectively quarantined.

Denise Lieberman of the American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern Missouri commented, "No one could see them from the street. In addition, the media were not allowed to talk to them. The police would not allow any media inside the protest area and wouldn't allow any of the protesters out of the protest zone to talk to the media."

When Bush stopped by a Boeing plant to talk to workers, Christine Mains and her 5-year-old daughter disobeyed orders to move to a small protest area far from the action. Police arrested Mains and took her and her crying daughter away in separate squad cars.

The Justice Department is now prosecuting Brett Bursey, who was arrested for holding a "No War for Oil" sign at a Bush visit to Columbia, S.C. Local police, acting under Secret Service orders, established a "free-speech zone" half a mile from where Bush would speak. Bursey was standing amid hundreds of people carrying signs praising the president. Police told Bursey to remove himself to the "free-speech zone."

Bursey refused and was arrested. Bursey said that he asked the police officer if "it was the content of my sign, and he said, 'Yes, sir, it's the content of your sign that's the problem.' " Bursey stated that he had already moved 200 yards from where Bush was supposed to speak. Bursey later complained, "The problem was, the restricted area kept moving. It was wherever I happened to be standing."

Bursey was charged with trespassing. Five months later, the charge was dropped because South Carolina law prohibits arresting people for trespassing on public property. But the Justice Department -- in the person of U.S. Attorney Strom Thurmond Jr. -- quickly jumped in, charging Bursey with violating a rarely enforced federal law regarding "entering a restricted area around the president of the United States."

If convicted, Bursey faces a six-month trip up the river and a $5,000 fine. Federal Magistrate Bristow Marchant denied Bursey's request for a jury trial because his violation is categorized as a petty offense. Some observers believe that the feds are seeking to set a precedent in a conservative state such as South Carolina that could then be used against protesters nationwide.

Bursey's trial took place on Nov. 12 and 13. His lawyers sought the Secret Service documents they believed would lay out the official policies on restricting critical speech at presidential visits. The Bush administration sought to block all access to the documents, but Marchant ruled that the lawyers could have limited access.

Bursey sought to subpoena Attorney General John Ashcroft and presidential adviser Karl Rove to testify. Bursey lawyer Lewis Pitts declared, "We intend to find out from Mr. Ashcroft why and how the decision to prosecute Mr. Bursey was reached." The magistrate refused, however, to enforce the subpoenas. Secret Service agent Holly Abel testified at the trial that Bursey was told to move to the "free-speech zone" but refused to cooperate.

The feds have offered some bizarre rationales for hog-tying protesters. Secret Service agent Brian Marr explained to National Public Radio, "These individuals may be so involved with trying to shout their support or nonsupport that inadvertently they may walk out into the motorcade route and be injured. And that is really the reason why we set these places up, so we can make sure that they have the right of free speech, but, two, we want to be sure that they are able to go home at the end of the evening and not be injured in any way." Except for having their constitutional rights shredded.

The ACLU, along with several other organizations, is suing the Secret Service for what it charges is a pattern and practice of suppressing protesters at Bush events in Arizona, California, Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, New Mexico, Texas and elsewhere. The ACLU's Witold Walczak said of the protesters, "The individuals we are talking about didn't pose a security threat; they posed a political threat."

The Secret Service is duty-bound to protect the president. But it is ludicrous to presume that would-be terrorists are lunkheaded enough to carry anti-Bush signs when carrying pro-Bush signs would give them much closer access. And even a policy of removing all people carrying signs -- as has happened in some demonstrations -- is pointless because potential attackers would simply avoid carrying signs. Assuming that terrorists are as unimaginative and predictable as the average federal bureaucrat is not a recipe for presidential longevity.

The Bush administration's anti-protester bias proved embarrassing for two American allies with long traditions of raucous free speech, resulting in some of the most repressive restrictions in memory in free countries.

When Bush visited Australia in October, Sydney Morning Herald columnist Mark Riley observed, "The basic right of freedom of speech will adopt a new interpretation during the Canberra visits this week by George Bush and his Chinese counterpart, Hu Jintao. Protesters will be free to speak as much as they like just as long as they can't be heard."

Demonstrators were shunted to an area away from the Federal Parliament building and prohibited from using any public address system in the area.

For Bush's recent visit to London, the White House demanded that British police ban all protest marches, close down the center of the city and impose a "virtual three-day shutdown of central London in a bid to foil disruption of the visit by anti-war protesters," according to Britain's Evening Standard. But instead of a "free-speech zone," the Bush administration demanded an "exclusion zone" to protect Bush from protesters' messages.

Such unprecedented restrictions did not inhibit Bush from portraying himself as a champion of freedom during his visit. In a speech at Whitehall on Nov. 19, Bush hyped the "forward strategy of freedom" and declared, "We seek the advance of freedom and the peace that freedom brings."

Attempts to suppress protesters become more disturbing in light of the Homeland Security Department's recommendation that local police departments view critics of the war on terrorism as potential terrorists. In a May terrorist advisory, the Homeland Security Department warned local law enforcement agencies to keep an eye on anyone who "expressed dislike of attitudes and decisions of the U.S. government." If police vigorously followed this advice, millions of Americans could be added to the official lists of suspected terrorists.

Protesters have claimed that police have assaulted them during demonstrations in New York, Washington and elsewhere.

One of the most violent government responses to an antiwar protest occurred when local police and the federally funded California Anti-Terrorism Task Force fired rubber bullets and tear gas at peaceful protesters and innocent bystanders at the Port of Oakland, injuring a number of people.

When the police attack sparked a geyser of media criticism, Mike van Winkle, the spokesman for the California Anti-Terrorism Information Center told the Oakland Tribune, "You can make an easy kind of a link that, if you have a protest group protesting a war where the cause that's being fought against is international terrorism, you might have terrorism at that protest. You can almost argue that a protest against that is a terrorist act."

Van Winkle justified classifying protesters as terrorists: "I've heard terrorism described as anything that is violent or has an economic impact, and shutting down a port certainly would have some economic impact. Terrorism isn't just bombs going off and killing people."

Such aggressive tactics become more ominous in the light of the Bush administration's advocacy, in its Patriot II draft legislation, of nullifying all judicial consent decrees restricting state and local police from spying on those groups who may oppose government policies.

On May 30, 2002, Ashcroft effectively abolished restrictions on FBI surveillance of Americans' everyday lives first imposed in 1976. One FBI internal newsletter encouraged FBI agents to conduct more interviews with antiwar activists "for plenty of reasons, chief of which it will enhance the paranoia endemic in such circles and will further service to get the point across that there is an FBI agent behind every mailbox."

The FBI took a shotgun approach toward protesters partly because of the FBI's "belief that dissident speech and association should be prevented because they were incipient steps toward the possible ultimate commission of act which might be criminal," according to a Senate report.

On Nov. 23 news broke that the FBI is actively conducting surveillance of antiwar demonstrators, supposedly to "blunt potential violence by extremist elements," according to a Reuters interview with a federal law enforcement official.

Given the FBI's expansive definition of "potential violence" in the past, this is a net that could catch almost any group or individual who falls into official disfavor.

James Bovard is the author of "Terrorism & Tyranny: Trampling Freedom, Justice, and Peace to Rid the World of Evil." This article is adapted from one that appeared in the Dec. 15 issue of the American Conservative.

C2004 San Francisco Chronicle

_________________
Que la musique sonne - Edgard Varese

I was seriously tempted to give up everything and go be a farmer or something... - Jack Endino, Seattle record producer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Seriously? Man! This is really far out!
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Was that ball field the Kraków Diamond?

I am very reserved when it comes to making these sorts of observations and comparisons, so that I may not be found crying wolf or engaging in undue alarmism, but if the above account is accurate...

People on their way to "free speech" zones.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Some things should never, ever be tolerated from those in power.

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18197
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 212
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

They got into power rigging an election. They won't go quietly into the night.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
play



Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 489
Location: behind the mustard
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm
http://www.c0balt.com/egg/insane.shtml

and

http://www.geocities.com/theawakeningnews/Police_State-Concentration_Camps_Locations.html


There was one other one but it's no longer onn the net.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18197
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 212
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noiseusse wrote:
There was one other one but it's no longer onn the net.

I've noticed that other sites like these have been moved to the Free Speech Zones. After 9-11 there was a very interesting movie that made the association between the current regime in Washington and the attacks. The entire site vanished hours after I saw it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, the camps. Personally, I do not have a solid opinion of them, as they could be used for such a wide variety of purposes (most bad), and are all too well known, which does, to some degree, constrict the government's ability to "pull a fast one." Now...

OKLAHOMA

Tinker AFB (OKC) - All base personnel are prohibited from going near civilian detention area, which is under constant guard.

Will Rogers World Airport - FEMA's main processing center for west of the Mississippi. All personnel are kept out of the security zone. Federal prisoner transfer center located here (A pentagon-shaped building where airplanes can taxi up to).

El Reno - Renovated federal internment facility with CURRENT population of 12,000 on Route 66.

McAlester - near Army Munitions Plant property - former WWII German / Italian POW camp designated for future use.

Ft. Sill (Lawton) - Former WWII detention camps. More data still needed.


These locations are all a few minutes away from where I live Ft Sill is a moderate drive, as is McAlester, but they are all nearby. Tinker and Will Rogers are each 10 minutes or less away, and I commonly visit both, Tinker for the BX and commissary, and Will Rogers for flights to and from home (TN).

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
The entire site vanished hours after I saw it.


The news reports of fighters moving to intercept a 4th hijacked airliner over Penn. and reports of the interception itself AND the initial debris field resulting from that interception were gone in a matter of less than an hour that morning.

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18197
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 212
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Six camps surrounding your home.

They must think you are a pretty tough customer. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I do so very much hope that you and I, we, are not impending 21st century Wladyslaw Szpilmans.

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
They must think you are a pretty tough customer. Wink


rofl. I wish I had that level of influence. I'm thinking of making a Saturday outing sometime with a digital camera. You know, sight-seeing in my home town. Getting to know the local landmarks. Or, perhaps better said "future landmarks."

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18197
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 212
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cyxeris wrote:
I'm thinking of making a Saturday outing sometime with a digital camera.

Hehehe. You might as well take pictures of them, because they'll be taking pictures of you. Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Cyxeris wrote:
I'm thinking of making a Saturday outing sometime with a digital camera.

Hehehe. You might as well take pictures of them, because they'll be taking pictures of you. Shocked


Ours is a war of information and education, not violence and destruction. And, hopefully, there will be no segue from the former into the latter, even though history warns us otherwise.

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Michael Chocholak



Joined: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 305
Location: Cove, Oregon, USA
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Last year in Oregon we had Senate Bill 742 which defined terrorism as;

(1) A person commits the crime of terrorism if the person knowingly
plans, participates in or carries out any act that is intended, by at
least one of its participants, to disrupt:
(a) The free and orderly assembly of the inhabitants of the State of
Oregon;
(b) Commerce or the transportation systems of the State of Oregon; or
(c) The educational of governmental institutions of the State of Oregon
or its inhabitants.

In other words just about ANY kind of protest. Penalties included life imprisonment! Local shock jock Lars Larson pushed hard for it because he was tired of protesters tying up traffic. Fortunately it died in committee.

However, the concept is still alive and well;

"Mike Van Winkle, spokesman for the California Anti-Terrorism Information Center, issued a remarkably broad definition of terrorism. "You can make an easy kind of link that, if you have a protest group protesting a war where the cause that's being fought against is international terrorism, you might have terrorism at that protest," he said. "You can almost argue that a protest against that is a terrorist act.""

And the system has built in supports for this insanity beyond political frame of mind;

In a Nation article from May 2002, Robert Dreyfuss wrote of that spillover effect. The Justice Department, he reported, had offered billions of dollars in anti-terror subsidies to local governments, but first they had to show that there were "potential threat elements" in their area. "Under the Justice Department program each state was asked to conduct a county-by-county assessment of potential terrorist threats in order to qualify for the federal largesse," Dreyfuss wrote. "In each city and county local police were required to identify up to fifteen groups or individuals called potential threat elements (PTEs). The Justice Department helpfully points out that the motivations of the PTEs could be 'political, religious, racial, environmental [or] special interest.' At a stroke, the Justice Department prompted 17,000 state and local police departments to begin monitoring radicals."

Bounty hunting.

_________________
Que la musique sonne - Edgard Varese

I was seriously tempted to give up everything and go be a farmer or something... - Jack Endino, Seattle record producer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And thanks to this and the like, I no longer believe in the concept of terrorism. How can I, the only terrorism I see taking place in America is being efforted by the government itself.

"You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists."

"You're either with the liberals, or you're with the Democrats."

"You're either with the conservatives, or you're with the Republicans."

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18197
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 212
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very interesting points. While I agree and I'm very concerned about abuse of power in the name of security. I'm also concerned that we, civil libertarians, don't get caught up in the same hysteria. I personally have been guilty of this.

I'll bet that in this election year, there will be a fringe on the right wing who will associate anyone who votes for the Democratic candidate with terrorists or traitors. Similarly, people on the other side will say Bush is another Hitler.

We need to keep things in perspective, and not get carried away. When we stretch our analogies to hyperbola, then we loose credibility with those who we are trying to convince. We separate ourselves from them.

These camps that are built by the government are probably real, but they may have valid purposes. What if a pathogen was released in a major metropolitan area and an evacuation was required. Don't we need to have a plan for that? Wouldn't it be irresponsible for the government not to have pre-built facilities to house the displaced people? Is it reasonable to keep these facilities secure when they aren't being used? The camps themselves are not inherently evil.

On the other hand, could these camps be misused? Certainly. Moreover, when the government starts setting up these free speech zones and confiscating anti-Bush signs from citizens on the streets, it becomes easier to believe there are dark designs behind the camps. But it is counter productive to call the US government terrorists.

Speaking as someone who had friends in the WTC when the terrorists crashed our jets into them, I'm much more concerned about the excesses of the radical Islamists than those of the US government. These people are the people who personify "You're either with us, our you're our enemy."

I am a supporter of the war on terrorism. I'm concerned that the Bush administration's actions to weaken our constitutional liberties in the name of this war are not increasing our security, but weakening it. These actions divide us because they are deflecting our focus on the real enemy.

In the meantime, I pray that there arises a real leader in the Arab world. They need a Gandhi or a Martin Luther King. Someone who will be effective in getting for the Arabs what they really need, freedom from oppression, despotism, ignorance, intolerance and endless violence.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Free Speech Zones! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mezmer wrote:
Secret Service agent Brian Marr explained to National Public Radio, "These individuals may be so involved with trying to shout their support or nonsupport that inadvertently they may walk out into the motorcade route and be injured. And that is really the reason why we set these places up, so we can make sure that they have the right of free speech, but, two, we want to be sure that they are able to go home at the end of the evening and not be injured in any way."

this guy is a genius, he is a wasted talent as secret service agent, he should be a comedian scratch

_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very true, enough so that I feel it necessary to reword my statement to more accurately reflect my intent, as I did not mean the government are/were "terrorists..."


And thanks to this and the like, I no longer believe in the concept of terrorism as presented us. How can I, the only entity I overtly see terrorizing Americans at this point seems to be the government itself.

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
egw
Stream Operator


Joined: Feb 01, 2003
Posts: 1569
Location: Asheville NC
Audio files: 18
G2 patch files: 8

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Terrorism is the modern replacement for communism.
Right wing governments must have an enemy to solidify popular support for their oppressive programs.

Terrorism is real. It has always been there, and will continue.
We need to fight it, especially by changing the conditions that cause it.
However you cannot wage war against a concept.
The "war" against terrorism will never end. It is a political convenience that keeps people afraid and allows the government to assume more power.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18197
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 212
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Remember, Bush at first didn't use the word war, he used crusade. The word crusade is much less popular in the Arab world than war. When they heard crusade, they were ready to crucify him.

It was a bad choice of words. Like telling the Jews he is starting a holocaust againt religous extremists to assure a more even handed policy in the Middle East.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

egw wrote:
Terrorism is real. It has always been there, and will continue.We need to fight it, especially by changing the conditions that cause it.However you cannot wage war against a concept. The "war" against terrorism will never end. It is a political convenience that keeps people afraid and allows the government to assume more power.


Exactly, and when I say terrorizing, that is exactly what I mean. We are being inundated with terror this and terror that, be terrified and, oh, by the way, try to ignore everything we are telling you that terrifies and go about your daily business as normal. We are here to save and protect you. Dont worry about the terror alerts, the color codes (which conveniently NEVER drop below yellow/elevated), dont worry about the inconvenience at the airports. Ad nauseum.

It reminds me of the war on drugs. Yes, drugs are a problem, yes in some cases (meth, heroine) they cause social ills, but at the end of the day, the drug problem here is not the drugs at all. I think many valid parallels can be drawn between these two ambiguous and conveniently neverending policies, er, sorry, I meant "wars."

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

are we headed toward a Fahrenheit 451 type scenario Question
If this is the case what
Mosc wrote:
Maybe we should make a copy of electro-music.com to go with the Waldorf site.
would be appropriate because this forum starts looking more and more like a terrorist cell salut salut
_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
If this is the case what would be appropriate because this forum starts looking more and more like a terrorist cell salut salut


Not shit. Dont think I havent thought a few times about the possible reprisals. And it isnt me I'm worried about, it's the "ringleader" who I worry about. I mean, we arent causing problems or anything, but how do they know, and how do we know where they draw the line? Or do they? Perhaps I should consult the US Constitution and find out what I am allowed to say, just to be sure.

This is another reason I am so hot on these topics. I currently feel as though I have to balance my opinions and concerns and freedom to express my ideas in a civil, rational, and peaceful manner, with this increasing fear of the response for doing so.

I am an American, presumably protected by this pesky document called the constitution, and those pesky amendments, and I am literally afraid to express myself. I do anyway, because I am passionate and defiant and, in no small measure, a delicate asshole, but I do so with a butterfly in my gut.

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Michael Chocholak



Joined: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 305
Location: Cove, Oregon, USA
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
It is a political convenience that keeps people afraid and allows the government to assume more power.


The horror of 911 was the best thing that could have happened to George. Prior to that he had nothing. Now he's got everybody with their wagons in a circle looking to the gov't to save them and willing to sacrifice practically everything this country is supposedly based on in order to do it.

And fear is becoming one of our cultural trademarks. Now if it starts to snow (well, duh, it's winter) the news channels go nuts with their 'Storm Watch' special broadcasts like every flake now signals the end of the world as we know it. Even the most minor news story becomes the crisis of the moment. Fear sells.

Quote:
and I am literally afraid to express myself. I do anyway, because I am passionate and defiant


Yes!. That's it. We've got to. That's the whole thing - to make everybody just give up & hide. Screw 'em. I'm tired of being afraid.

_________________
Que la musique sonne - Edgard Varese

I was seriously tempted to give up everything and go be a farmer or something... - Jack Endino, Seattle record producer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Cyxeris



Joined: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 1125
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
this forum starts looking more and more like a terrorist cell salut salut


A highly dispersed slapstick funloving peaceloving mushroom loving (only in principle, Gman!) artloving culture loving violence hating terrorist cell at that.

You're either with us, or you're with the RIAA.

Cyx

_________________
∆ Cyx ∆

"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 2 [38 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » News... » Miscellaneous News
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use