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Amusing Apple Vista-bashing vid
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brinxmat



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:44 am    Post subject: Amusing Apple Vista-bashing vid Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vZ28p-J40d0

Hehe.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Its funny really, I use various x-windows systems, XP, NT, 2003 server and OSX and in my eyes OSX is by far the worse, full of clutter, too many windows and only one menu.

Spotlight can cripple a machine with it incessant indexing, and safari is nasty, apparently if we believe the video two advantages of osx.

Every one has different opinions I supose.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
Its funny really, I use various x-windows systems, XP, NT, 2003 server and OSX and in my eyes OSX is by far the worse, full of clutter, too many windows and only one menu.

Spotlight can cripple a machine with it incessant indexing, and safari is nasty, apparently if we believe the video two advantages of osx.

Every one has different opinions I supose.

Andy


I am not a great fan of Apple (despite my avatar), and mostly use linux-based machines these days (though I have to use Win for some tasks, which would explain why I have booted this machine to XP today), however the video is funny.

The OSX GUI is far superior to anything proffered by M$ and the M$-cloners at Gnome/KDE due to one fact: the GUI metaphor used in OSX is relatively pure, whereas it is simply non-existent in the others. The consistency in the OSX GUI is a single strength that lacks in all other mainstream GUIs.

Your other points, however, have validity, but they beg the question why M$ insists on copying these weaknesses. (I wouldn't know about most of them as I haven't much used any version of OSX since 10.2.9 -- the last good version.)

And when it comes down to it, the only time I use a GUI is when I'm surfing the web and doing necessarily Word-compatible word processing. Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OS X 10.4.8 is better than the 10.2.x family. Recommended!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

…if you've got an Intel Mac, then I maybe agree that you're -- on the whole -- better off with 10.4.x, but otherwise…
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

brinxmat wrote:

I am not a great fan of Apple (despite my avatar)


I was gonna say......... Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
in my eyes OSX is by far the worse, full of clutter, too many windows and only one menu.


yeah I do agree with you. The floating windows really piss me off too.

However, the all-in-one XP window really sucks too Evil or Very Mad

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The confusion between window managers and operating systems continues to go on and on. For this reason, Windows and OSX both are primitive.

Google seems to me to be the only one innovating these days. Google calendar is really superb. You can share you calendar with anyone regardless of their OS or browser. Wouldn't it be nice if someday Google released window managers that ran on any OS Question Idea .

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The windowing policy of OSX is fine, you just have to understand it. I actually find that I have so many windows up on my XP box that I really get lost, this doesn't happen on my Linux box (this one) or my Mac.

I like the idea of portable desktops managers, but I don't really see the point in non *NIX operating systems.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Google calendar is really superb. You can share you calendar with anyone regardless of their OS or browser.


Shocked

Thanks for the tip Mosc Very Happy

I don't get a lot of time these days to find these wonderful things on the web Sad

On any OS? Isn't it already on 'any OS'?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
On any OS? Isn't it already on 'any OS'?


Google stores the calendar data on their server and uses a web app to view and edit it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"underneath it all it's still windows" By and far the best statement of that whole speech Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing

The WWDC presentation was funny as hell. I use Mac OSX 10.4.9 on a Mac Pro and it works like a charm. I very much disagree with the GUI statement above, Mac OSX is so easy to get around it isn't even funny. Especially the Expose control on the mouse, it has helped me numerous times with all my Audio applications open at once. The lack of a need to defrag and clean your disk every month is also a plus. Not to mention the lack of serious viruses...if any for this platform. It's built in automatic driver system makes adding peripherals a matter of "plugging them in." My biggest gripe was when they implemented the Universal Binary platform...it put me on hold with my developments until the major software I used caught up. Rosetta is a no no in terms of audio software-synths and sequencers! As far s the price, Apple's hardware....sheer rape-age. Their software isn't bad at all, especially the operating system in comparison to Microsoft's bags of trouble.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
Its funny really, I use various x-windows systems, XP, NT, 2003 server and OSX and in my eyes OSX is by far the worse, full of clutter, too many windows and only one menu.


I agree about the one menu issue, this IMHO is a huge issue with MacOS which -I believe- is right now in a transitional phase. The main problem seems to be that MacOS was always outspokenly a single-task OS which they -sensibly- reflected in the interface. Sadly that doesn't work so well when you aply the same idea to a multi-tasking OS.

Two weeks back or so I was talking with Amy (a declared Mac user) and brought that up when she talked about Windows and she seemed quite surprised by this marvelous idea of having a menu per window.

Quote:

Spotlight can cripple a machine with it incessant indexing, and safari is nasty, apparently if we believe the video two advantages of osx.


I don't get what's up with Safari at all. Wasn't Apple amongst the parties that raised hell a few years back about MS bundeling the browser with the OS? The same thing with Media Player and I-whatever. The strategy seems to be locking people in by bundeling the ap with the OS, then making it as incompattible as possible, in the process creating security holes.

I don't see what Apple aims to accomplish by showing off how Mac OS looks exactly like Vista. To me this video seems like standing next to a poor soul who just slipped into a pit of manure, in walks a little funny man who starts lauging uncontrolably, then says "ha ha ha, he just slipped into it only now while I've been covered in shit for five years now! See? I'm all stinky just like him!"

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

brinxmat wrote:
The windowing policy of OSX is fine, you just have to understand it.


MacOS and it's users are becoming more like other OS's by the day!

:¬p

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kassen wrote:
BobTheDog wrote:
Its funny really, I use various x-windows systems, XP, NT, 2003 server and OSX and in my eyes OSX is by far the worse, full of clutter, too many windows and only one menu.


I agree about the one menu issue, this IMHO is a huge issue with MacOS which -I believe- is right now in a transitional phase. The main problem seems to be that MacOS was always outspokenly a single-task OS which they -sensibly- reflected in the interface. Sadly that doesn't work so well when you aply the same idea to a multi-tasking OS.

Two weeks back or so I was talking with Amy (a declared Mac user) and brought that up when she talked about Windows and she seemed quite surprised by this marvelous idea of having a menu per window.


I always need to have several menus, so that I can work with the next to topmost window...er no, hang on, what am I thinking, only the topmost window is active irrespective of how many menus I have per window. And in fact, you'll find that the Mac OS single menu changes depending on which window is active. Oooh! Get your head around that one.

Unless you're thinking of the "Start menu" of Windows, of Applications, places and System menus of Gnome/Ubuntu, etc. Which Mac OS X actually manages to squeeze into its file manager concept -- and still with only one menu. (And looking at the Ubuntu I'm working on now, these menus are mode-based anyway, locking the interface until the topmost operation is finished. Try clicking Applications, and then interacting with the menus in an application.)

Sorry, I don't buy the multiple menus argument, as you can't interact with anything but the topmost window anyway. Do, however, have a look at what you do when you try and select a menu: 9 times out of 10, you break on the top on the display, and then drag back down to the menu.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There have been a couple of different attempts at the menu paradigm, I don't think we have seen the best yet. I kind of liked what they did in old Unix window managers, where menus were invisible and popped up (as a pop-up window) when you right-clicked (or center maybe, haven't done it for some time). That way, you get a nice big clean surface to work on, although you don't know what's in the menu until you bring it up - and if you're a newbie you're left wondering where the menu is, and what does this strange empty app do anyway.

I personally like the Mac's menu paradigm because, as I use two screens, I get some extra room on the second screen where the menu would be on Windows windows. I like space in my apps.

Also, it makes sense to have the central menu on a Mac where you don't have the container windows (forget their official name) that can contain other windows. If you've worked with Gimp you may know what I mean - there are menus in the main window and the image windows that overlap, but not completely - confusing. Better to put all actions in a central menu at the top. This is done in the Windows container windows, although I personally am not a big fan of these - they can be useful in some places (like in a programming IDE like Visual Studio), but are overused, and often make it hard to look at the contents of two applications simultaneously.

I think the development of window managers has lost pace, when it should be thriving. It seems Windows 95 set the standard for how everyone feels a window manager (or "computer") should look like - and what a poor standard that is.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

brinxmat wrote:

Sorry, I don't buy the multiple menus argument, as you can't interact with anything but the topmost window anyway.


Maybe not in OSX, no, I never tried, I have enough trouble managing one window in OSX. I hate it when one window has the focus but is invisible, having zipped-off to some over-designed but unusable block of indecypherable icons yet STILL gobles all the keypresses I intended for the windows manager because the windows manager is the only window in sight yet doesn't have the "focus".

I just don't see what's so great about any of this MS/Apple "innovativeness".; I rarely need to search for a file because I have directories where I sort my files. If I need to know where a speciffic file is it's likely a a OS file and I can simply type "whereis [filename]". By the time companies that think rounded corners, pastel "colours" and cute puppie dogs mark innovative interfaces to searching I think we might need to seriously considder wether it wouldn't be better to go back to counting pebles and drawing in the sand.

This is just sad. Let's snap out of the traditions of our time for a second and look at this as though we first saw it. Imagine you and me each designed a major OS, this would've taken us at least a decade each. Without a doubt this would place us amongst the top developers in the world, many, many companies would follow the very letter of any standard we would publish. Any badly worded phrase in our documents on how the world should work would be fiercely debated. Got that image? Now imagine that once we are there we try to one-up eachother by -get this- the graphical interface to our command to look for files.

Well, I'm sorry but if that would happen to me I'd order groceries over the Internet to avoid showing my face in public and cry myself to sleep every night.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
There have been a couple of different attempts at the menu paradigm, I don't think we have seen the best yet. I kind of liked what they did in old Unix window managers, where menus were invisible and popped up (as a pop-up window) when you right-clicked (or center maybe, haven't done it for some time). That way, you get a nice big clean surface to work on, although you don't know what's in the menu until you bring it up - and if you're a newbie you're left wondering where the menu is, and what does this strange empty app do anyway.


You can have that right now! Try "Fluxbox" as a Xwindows manager, it does exactly this and is very light-weight, making it the default in some media distros because it can save cpu time.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Antimon wrote:
There have been a couple of different attempts at the menu paradigm, I don't think we have seen the best yet. I kind of liked what they did in old Unix window managers, where menus were invisible and popped up (as a pop-up window) when you right-clicked (or center maybe, haven't done it for some time). That way, you get a nice big clean surface to work on, although you don't know what's in the menu until you bring it up - and if you're a newbie you're left wondering where the menu is, and what does this strange empty app do anyway.


You can have that right now! Try "Fluxbox" as a Xwindows manager, it does exactly this and is very light-weight, making it the default in some media distros because it can save cpu time.


Also for OSX there is a great utility called DejaMenu, this allows you to bring up the main menu for an app actually as a pulldown on the app screen. I have it mapped to one of my mouse buttons, makes OSX useable for people with multiple monitors.

Cheers

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tongue in cheek comments to follow...

There's an awful lot of bitching on this thread about how crap all the current window managers are. I'm bored of it.

If you are all so dissatisfied with current state of things, how about mocking up some screenshots of how you want it to look/behave? Show us your bright idea.

BTW, one of my favorite Apple-bashing techniques is "I tried it once or twice, had a couple of confusing/difficult/frustrating experiences and on this basis I conclude that the entire OS is garbage." If people treated sex the same way, homo sapiens would go extinct (and the planet might be better off, actually).

"Only one menu"... how the hell is that hard to figure out? Whichever application is active, that's the menu you see. I have never in my life been confused by this.

The one thing from Windows I would like to see in Mac OSX is a keyboard-shortcut (alt-key) path to EVERY menu command. Otherwise Windows can rot as far as I'm concerned.



James

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why do people get emotional about this topic? Why do we get upset if someone doesn't like our computer? Really, I'm interested in this as a window into understanding human psychology. I think this gets people more agitated than discussing religion.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
Kassen wrote:
Antimon wrote:
There have been a couple of different attempts at the menu paradigm, I don't think we have seen the best yet. I kind of liked what they did in old Unix window managers, where menus were invisible and popped up (as a pop-up window) when you right-clicked (or center maybe, haven't done it for some time). That way, you get a nice big clean surface to work on, although you don't know what's in the menu until you bring it up - and if you're a newbie you're left wondering where the menu is, and what does this strange empty app do anyway.


You can have that right now! Try "Fluxbox" as a Xwindows manager, it does exactly this and is very light-weight, making it the default in some media distros because it can save cpu time.


Also for OSX there is a great utility called DejaMenu, this allows you to bring up the main menu for an app actually as a pulldown on the app screen. I have it mapped to one of my mouse buttons, makes OSX useable for people with multiple monitors.

Cheers

Andy


Thanks - that's a cool app! Trying it now... I need to find proper drivers for my four button Kensington trackball so I can have a special menu key.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Why do people get emotional about this topic? Why do we get upset if someone doesn't like our computer? Really, I'm interested in this as a window into understanding human psychology. I think this gets people more agitated than discussing religion.



I don't think I'm really emotional about it... I just don't understand the complaints. I use OSX at home because I like it; I have to use Windows at work. I don't really find either one to be significantly more or less usable than the other, and for my money, neither one gets in the way of what I'm trying to accomplish to such a degree that I would say it's unusable.

I do think Windows is a badly engineered cowpie, but overall it hides its slipshod architecture from the end-user, at least in day-to-day work (excepting Internet security and application deinstallation). My gut feeling is that OSX is somewhat better engineered, but I can't prove it. My other gut feeling is that Linux is not so much better engineered than OSX to justify (what I perceive to be, perhaps erroneously) a certain smugness from some Linux users.

I have an issue in general with endless kvetching about how awful something is if that person is not going to bother to propose a better alternative. Seems a waste of time to me.

... all of which combines to leave me bemused more than anything else by the goings on in this thread. While there have been a few interesting comments about window managers, it doesn't take long for somebody to say something thoroughly silly and debase the thread again.

James

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
Tongue in cheek comments to follow...

There's an awful lot of bitching on this thread about how crap all the current window managers are. I'm bored of it.

If you are all so dissatisfied with current state of things, how about mocking up some screenshots of how you want it to look/behave? Show us your bright idea.


I liked Gem but it has some things I don't like like animations for window-activation. I realy like the OS/2 warp3 one. I also like the graphical environment of the Roland S-series of samplers. Basically, if you want to know wether I like windows-manager X more then windows-manager Y you can look which one is more simple and that will be the one I like more.

Increasingly I find I just don't like the whole graphical idea at all anymore except for browsing the web and even there I regularly turn graphics off altogether. On my laptop I bound opening the prompt to a keyboard shortcut and since I did so opening that has become the first thing I do after booting. I'll call programs from there instead of double clicking, etc. I stopped using a mouse and only very rarely use the touchpad.


Quote:
BTW, one of my favorite Apple-bashing techniques is "I tried it once or twice, had a couple of confusing/difficult/frustrating experiences and on this basis I conclude that the entire OS is garbage." If people treated sex the same way, homo sapiens would go extinct (and the planet might be better off, actually).


I for one would be entirely in favour of homo-sapiens going extinct, I've long advocated heavy taxation on having childeren. Anyway, I used a Mac every week-day for a year, this was browsing the web and coding and going back home to OS/2 was a relief every time. I just don't like the interface, I don't like the dependence on the mouse and I don't like the design. As Steve Jobs's friend pointed out; it looks exactly like Vista these days.

As a OS I think OSX is quite good though. I would never say the whole OS is garbage. A "real" BSD is of course more secure and I wouldn't risk putting a OSX worskstation on the net but as a OS for a music workstation it's very apealing to me and will likely run on my next laptop.

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"Only one menu"... how the hell is that hard to figure out? Whichever application is active, that's the menu you see. I have never in my life been confused by this.


Well, it gets VERY hard for me when I'm unable to tell what programs are running and which one is active at all.

Perhaps I just get confused easily. If anything suddenly starts animating; this will confuse me. If something happens without me explicidly demanding it this will confuse me. I expect keyboard shortcuts to be consistent; if I highlight a file, then press ctrl+c this should copy it to the clip-board. Apple's interface doesn't conform to those standards and worse yet it uses colours and hence I don't like it.

This does not mean the whole OS sucks, but it does make it a great shame that it's tied to one windows manager.

Could be just me, I don't like TV and Hollywood movies either for exactly the same reason; there are too many hectic pseudo-important events on the schreen and I get confused.

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The one thing from Windows I would like to see in Mac OSX is a keyboard-shortcut (alt-key) path to EVERY menu command. Otherwise Windows can rot as far as I'm concerned.


Yes, that would be a good idea. I found out the hard way, once, that one of the things you can't set by using just the keyboard in Windows is the setting to use the num-lock keys as a mouse. This is quite anoying if your mouse breaks.

Windows sucks too. As a interface it sucks less then OSX, at least in my experience and after heavy tweaking (people ask me what OS my version of windows XP is) but as a "OS" it's hardly worthy of the term and OSX is much preferable, though not as good as I imagine something based on BSD with that budget could be. MS is the largest Apple share-holder, I'm not at all surprised that their OS's are so alike. The one good thing about Windows is that it runs on a LOT more hardware then OSX, though out of the box it runs on less then Linux.

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