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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:28 am Post subject:
Pics of Moog 914 Fixed Filter Bank |
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In another topic - http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-14632.html - we were discussing a bit about the Moog Fixed Filter Bank modules. I received this PM from 3PHase. I trust he won't mind me referencing it here.
Quote: | Hi Howard,
thanks for the link to the Moog filter bank. i quickly found out why there are no remakes...
Moog didn't try to make the coils small... and therefore they are big part of the specific sound and not easy to build. The bass ones must be huge.
To rebuild a 907 module it would need to recreate the coils in a similar fashion as they done in the real thing...
Did you ever had a chance to look inside one of this modules?
How are the could done? around a ferrite shaft? or in a ferrite housing?
Or do they look like transformers with a metal block?
Ho w are they physical dimensions roughly? is the coil cable very thin or already in the 0,5 mm diameter region?
I don't know if you have answers for this questions ..but maybe?
Best regards,
Sven |
Since it has been a long time since I looked at the innards of the modules in my Moog, I decided to open her up and take some pics of the 914 module. Maybe in this case the old cliché is true that "a picture is worth a thousand words".
Description: |
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module |
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2.37 MB |
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4035 Time(s) |
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge. |
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Description: |
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module |
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Filesize: |
2.17 MB |
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3967 Time(s) |
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge. |
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Description: |
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module |
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Filesize: |
2.18 MB |
Viewed: |
3891 Time(s) |
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge. |
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Description: |
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module |
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Filesize: |
2.18 MB |
Viewed: |
3908 Time(s) |
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge. |
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Description: |
Moog 914 fixed filter bank module |
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Filesize: |
2.24 MB |
Viewed: |
3880 Time(s) |
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge. |
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_________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2669 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:03 am Post subject:
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Wow, no wonder the Moog modular sounds so 'big'. |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:06 am Post subject:
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thanks..thats interesting...
the coils look like ferrit ring coils witch a lot of windings...
Nothing anybody like to do by hand...that and the perfect shape of them indicate an idustrial source... either specially winded for Moog or maybe some 'US standard product? Anybody came along such a produkt somewhere?
It actually looks like that Moog got the desired Values by combining multiple smaller coils. This also indicates an industrial produkt. |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:10 am Post subject:
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On one of the pictures it looks like that the coils are labeled...
Is it maybe possible to read one of this labels? |
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:22 am Post subject:
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3phase wrote: | Is it maybe possible to read one of this labels? |
I guess one could tear into this and find some writing on the coils, but I started getting nervous just taking pictures of it so I have put it back in the case and secured the screws. I'm sure the sound is not dependent on the coils' manufacturer any more than that of the capacitors which are just as an important a part of the circuit. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:49 am Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | I'm sure the sound is not dependent on the coils' manufacturer any more than that of the capacitors which are just as an important a part of the circuit. |
Dont want to force you to open it again...
The capaciators are an easy gool...just get good foil types and it should be wright in spec...
with the coil its probably different. The amount of windigs... core material..is it ferrit? probably..but dont have to be...
All this affects the sound very much as you can hear easiely when doing crossovers for speakers... it should be as drastical in a filter
Its defenetly interesting to see that a 5H coil is done out of 2x2H and one 1H...at least it looks like that...
I hope i find a non industrial source to experiment around a bit... |
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v-un-v
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Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject:
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Didn't Bob Moog say that the only thing he regretted about the Minimoog was that it never had a fixed filter bank added to it??
I think these modules tend to be quite underrated, but they're a very important part of sound design.
The size of those coils are crazy _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:53 am Post subject:
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Did you actually mean 5H, or 5mH? _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:48 am Post subject:
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Mosc provided a link to the schematics in another thread...there its clearly stated that the lowcut is two 5 Henry coils...
That is easily backed up from the beautifull pictures in this thread...
Torodial inducters of that szise and with so many windings....
In relation to the power they have to handle, they are huge..
so no printing mistake in the schematics...
Ive never seen so beefy coils in a filter...even in the old Telefunken, Eckmiller stuff they managed it with 1,5H in the max...
And this units are known for good sound in mastering applikations because of theiere "huge" coils. |
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kkissinger
Joined: Mar 28, 2006 Posts: 1354 Location: Kansas City, Mo USA
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:33 am Post subject:
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I think the Fixed-filter bank is in many ways the "missing ingredient" that differentiates the Moog Modular from other synths of the era (MiniMoog, Arp Oddessy and 2600) -- including my Aries (Aries didn't offer a fixed filter bank module).
I have been tempted to add a fixed-filter bank to the Aries (I believe dot-com sells one) however a lack of panel space has discouraged me from pursuing such a project. |
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mosc
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v-un-v
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Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject:
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Hmm- yummy
It's remarkable how simple it is. _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:47 am Post subject:
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v-un-v wrote: |
It's remarkable how simple it is. |
Yea, as I recall that was typical of most of the Moog modules.
Loved those 2n2925/26s Ah memories _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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mosc
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:33 am Post subject:
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This is a link to a schematic for a mixer
http://www.physicsenterprises.andrews.edu/diy_archive/manuals/moog/modular/mod_07.gif
] It uses an op amp. Several other modules also use them. But I don't remember seeing any in the Moog at J.U. Is that just bad memory? _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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mosc
Site Admin
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:40 am Post subject:
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Around 1972, I think it was, Moog released improved versions of some of the modules including the oscillators, 921, 921A and 921B. These use ICs as does the 960 sequencer. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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synthbaron
Joined: Oct 21, 2006 Posts: 21
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:36 am Post subject:
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Interesting. My 907 didn't have trimmers and had front panel pots with built in switches. |
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject:
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The schematic Mosc has posted first was slightly different to this one..
Seems that there are different versions.
Seems that the Moog Filterbank was a very valuable piece of circuit..even when it might appear simple..there is so much fine selection necessary to build it... Probably because of variations in the coils...
Nothing anybody would build today...
I like the idea to build me one when i can get a connection to some coils..
But coils are expensiv... Nothing i can afford wright now..
I will give the legendary x-former manufactor Haufe a call and ask if the have any standard values availible... They are defenetly one of the most knowledged sources of audio induktors on the planet. Maybe its not more expensiv with them than with an industrial source because they are used to work with privat developers.
Small quantities of an expensiv product might be still cheaper than industrial sources where you have to take bigger amounts. |
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CZ Rider
Joined: Dec 14, 2006 Posts: 17 Location: Southeastern,PA
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject:
914 winder |
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Hi Everybody,
Noticed you are discussing the Moog fixed filter bank construction.
I have some info on these. The coils are toroidal and are wound on
three different type cores. There are ferrite, powderd iron, and molly
permalley cores. The winding amount is determined by the permeability
of the core and the value desired. These cores were manufactured by
the Allen Organ factory for Moog. All of the toroids came from there.
Funny thing is I have the actual machines and formulas used to
manufacture these cores. I am working on sources for the various
items needed to remanufacture these. At the moment I need a
permeability meter? And a few other things, (wax,cores)
Hey Howard, thanks for posting the pics of the innards of the 914.
Someday perhaps I will be able to make some of these. They look to
be expensive though parts wise. About 3 to 5 dollars each to make.
Here are some photos of the actual winders that made all of the fixed
filter toroids.
Terry
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v-un-v
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Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:18 am Post subject:
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WOW!!
Does it also make porridge??
to electro-music.com CZ!
I suppose you are offering to build is some coils now? _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:23 am Post subject:
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Wow, CZ has finally posted something on the forum.
This is a red letter day for electro-music.com.
To let out a secret, CZ is 1/2 of Orbital Decay, a major electro-music group. They have played electronic music for decades - appearing regularly at The Gatherings and at the electro-music events in Philly among other thing. Orbital Decay CDs are best sellers too.
CZ is a serious gear head, obviously.
Back to the topic at hand, I would love to see that coil winding machine in action.
Maybe if there are some people interested in building new 914 filters, we can get some money together to help CZ get the necessities to make a run of coils. Just a thought. I don't need any coils myself. (I have done many stupid things in my life, but getting a new Moog Modular in 1972 was not one of them.) _________________ --Howard
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v-un-v
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Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:07 am Post subject:
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mosc wrote: |
Maybe if there are some people interested in building new 914 filters, we can get some money together to help CZ get the necessities to make a run of coils. Just a thought. |
A great thought I may add
I wish Moog Music (or someone for that matter) would do a run on the PCB's (unpopulated), so that we could do a DIY Moog _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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synthbaron
Joined: Oct 21, 2006 Posts: 21
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Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:19 am Post subject:
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It may also be possible to scrap an old analog (before 1971) Allen Organs for inductors that are "close enough". I know mine had at least 122 of them in each generator section, and they had a minimum of two generators in an organ. They look exactly the same as the ones in the FFB. Sometimes 5 or 6 generator banks in a large one. You should be able to buy one for a couple of hundred bucks. |
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject:
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SynthBaron wrote: | It may also be possible to scrap an old analog (before 1971) Allen Organs for inductors that are "close enough". I know mine had at least 122 of them in each generator section, and they had a minimum of two generators in an organ. They look exactly the same as the ones in the FFB. Sometimes 5 or 6 generator banks in a large one. You should be able to buy one for a couple of hundred bucks. |
yes this had crossed my mind too. I had an old hammond or lowrey- can't remember now- but it had hundreds of coils inside _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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Uncle Krunkus
Moderator
Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:46 am Post subject:
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How the hell do you wind a toroidal core coil anyway? I'm assuming there is no gap in the core, but it seems getting hundreds of winds of enameled wire on there must be a bit of a magic trick. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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