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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » g2ools utilities
nm2g2 converter and the NM1 User Lib...
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

direct dx7 convertion would be better anyway because of the integrated dx oscilator/env section of the G2... But the goal for nm2g2 is to convert any nm1 patch as found into something that sound the same or as close as possible... so i ve to find the expression for the fmb input on the G2.. i actually fear that requires an own table..but maybe i am happy and its just the Fm track settin? have to do a test patch...
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cappy2112



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Wout Blommers wrote:


I'll not publish the URL here as that would probably overload my computer and my communications line, but when the person(s) that's going to do the concersion send(s) me a PM I'll send that person(s) the URL - in the hope the URL will stay a bit of a secret.


Why not put it on E-M, where the other NM archive link is?
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ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
direct dx7 convertion would be better anyway because of the integrated dx oscilator/env section of the G2...


Yes, and also the variations. DX7 patches come in blocks of 32 so the converter could create four G2 patches for each DX7 bank.

Last edited by ian-s on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
... so to do it right would requiere another model than was used for th NM Classic, and a different conversion directly from the DX7 to the G2.

I think we should make this another project Very Happy

Wout
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cappy2112 wrote:
Why not put it on E-M, where the other NM archive link is?


It will be there one day but it needs work.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cant it be for the time inbetween just be availible as a ftp link like the old lib? so access is there and better integration can be made over time?
Actually the conversions are at this stage the best bugfinder when you compare 1:1...

One problem that needs to be solved...

the set current notes function of the NM1...

The G2 dont memorizes key with a patch..or?
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cappy2112



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Blue Hell wrote:
... so to do it right would requiere another model than was used for th NM Classic, and a different conversion directly from the DX7 to the G2.

I think we should make this another project Very Happy

Wout


I agree, but ti could still leverage a lot of code from the g2ools project.
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qfingers



Joined: Nov 16, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, my first run through showed that I have several bugs/issues that need to be dealt with. I tried 36000 patches (maybe some the same), and I got 33000 generated G2 patches. Of the rest, around 100 were V3 patches, the other 2900 were V2 patches. The 100 patches had things I overlooked in the converter. I'm fixing them as I test each patch. When I finish that, update the bug reports here and by 3phase and a couple of module converter models, I'm going to rerun it again against all 36000 patches. That should be ready for public consumption. It won't be sorted into categories, just in the authors directory.

I think the patch collection should be version stamped like the converter but with a different version numbing scheme. It should include the version of the converter and then another number, if tweaks were done to patches.

I also think the patch category list should just contain links to the authors patches so we have only 1 patch to maintain. I would like to take the categories of the collection I have a make them the same categories as the G2. I can update the patches with that category as well.

Within the patch collection, I've also noticed there are 4 slot patches. I need to finish my .prf2 reader/writer routines so we can build performances out of the 4 slot patches. I'm also going to add to the converter the ability to control the converters operation with config files in each directory where patches are located. This gives the ability to control whether or not the converter is run against a patch that has been hand tweaked. Plus, I can use it to group the 4 slot patches into performances. This is where much of the work on the patch collection will be. Making the correct configuration files so the patches remain in the best state always.

What do you guys think?

q
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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sounds good...
i also like the idea of auto grouping patches to performances...but there are probably not too many 4 slot patches..
such a thing would have been a great tool for the nm1 to be able to load a folder with 4 patches in one go...

To bad that i dont know enough about programming..even when the commandline structure allows universal possebilitys things like clicking and dragging have theire advatages to..
Hope fuly a talented gui designer buys a G2 soon Wink
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
sounds good...
i also like the idea of auto grouping patches to performances...but there are probably not too many 4 slot patches..
such a thing would have been a great tool for the nm1 to be able to load a folder with 4 patches in one go...


There was several hundred. I'm not sure of the count but it was alot.

Quote:
To bad that i dont know enough about programming..even when the commandline structure allows universal possebilitys things like clicking and dragging have theire advatages to..
Hope fuly a talented gui designer buys a G2 soon Wink

cappy2112 said he would take a shot at a gui. My only request is the command-line stays the same. His application will either wrap the existing application or wrap the python code. It'll happen.

First is get the next g2ools version updated, tested, debugged, and released.

q
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cappy2112



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
sounds good...
Hope fuly a talented gui designer buys a G2 soon Wink


A gui version initially *might* provide a file selector dialog, so the user doesn't need to open a shell prompt (cmd line window), or fumble with syntax.
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just in case someone was looking, here is a link to some C source code that contains the structure of the DX7 patch bank file. The site also has zip files containing big collections of DX7 patches.
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks god is the converter also a good working tool...
you never could check all this files.. but with wright parameter acces dx patches can be interesting...
in my dx times i got a cheap rack with 3 tf1 modules and a tx7 table top controled by a 909 and a niessen sequencer...
usually i had the 3 tfs stacked on the same midichannel on the niessen and the 909 on the tx with a peavy fader box inbetween..controling tx7 parameters..mainly the envelopes and oscilator tunings with the 16 faders on multiple pages...

I never had mor than maybe 16 dx sound in my collection..but that was in this config enough to make some serious noise...and pretty housy chordsequencing...the 909 was thru logics chord memorizer... so 16 presets for the external 909 midi sequenz track...and the niessen was also able to have cords on any of the steps ...

why do i tell that all...because the most important of all external control able dx 7 parameters is not really implemented in the dx models i came along so far... stepped or smooth polyphic glides ..the yamaha dx series has some serios glide modes and the glide time on a programable fader a nice feature..the dx 7 is best when it dont trys to do pianos..or better..when the pianos can morph to a strange wall of sound and back with just moving some faders...

A propper dx translation should try to have such a playmode
The only reson to still desire a dx 7... funny enough...the old v1 models have that what is now for the ears a warm vintage sound..in digital....
Funny that any equipment has a vintage sound when its old enough.

a good dx conversion needs some bit reduction and filtering in the outputs Wink
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
Funny that any equipment has a vintage sound when its old enough.


Idea oxidation in the copper wire that goes to the audio out. Like old cheap rca cables, nothing like them for rolling off those highs Smile

The extra noise from those near dead electrolytic caps must help as well. Laughing
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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

actually its not so esoteric..when you look at the parts and the power condition of the ampstages you will find that every generation of synths has more crapy amps and less voltage to drive them...
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cappy2112



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
3phase wrote:
Funny that any equipment has a vintage sound when its old enough.


Idea oxidation in the copper wire that goes to the audio out. Like old cheap rca cables, nothing like them for rolling off those highs Smile

The extra noise from those near dead electrolytic caps must help as well. Laughing


this http://www.monstercable.com/home_av/
ought to fix that problem Smile
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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It would be good to bring the conversion of the Nm1 lib up..

It would be nice to place it here..
Mosc??
Do you see a possibility to give it an ownsub forum or ?
I dont know how to set things like this up but maybe another user can help?

In the moment we have a folder that contains the whole libary sorted by author folders..each folder holds the Nm1 originals and the G2 conversions.. its 380Mb
This is not so much bigger than the G2 translations alone, but has many practical advantages.

When further optimisations are done with nm2g2 the waste of logic modules will disappear for example.. so bigger patches can be translated under 100%..but its difficult than to understand a patch because textinformation on the modules gets lost this way..So the original Nm1 patch is also a map to the converted patch that is accesible also for people that dont have a Nm1...They just need t install the old editor and can analyze a patch from there...

So i strongly vote for keeping originals and conversions together in their authors folders..
So on Nm1 libary accessible for booth nord modular synths.

Another point for bringing this up now in a rough state allready: ..
We need to find the bad translations to bring the converter to a final state..
So users that have booth machines or original authors can point to problems.

Its also good to have a basic lib page accessible because this motivates users to think about optimisations...

It might look like this..
#

a subforum that has 1 locked thread,subsubforum or a master link that gets to a page where you an access the base lib with all the authors subfolders..

other threads or an extra subforum for discussion about the conversions where users can point to critical translations..

In the future maybe links to the archive...cattegorized search or whatever can be usefull..

maybe also the Dx conversions could be placed there in a similar fashion.. So beside the G2 related subfolders of actual patches an own subforum that houses everything that is based on conversions...and acting by the side as integrated nm1 lib aswell.. by keeping the original and conversion together this just happens as a side fx...

I am no IT guy.. so i cant help there much..

I just see a need to bring a version of the lib up now to gather the necessary information to get nm2g2 optimized...

So somehow having the lib that was done with the latest converter as some kind public beta test..
and of cause usefull resource allready... many patches get converted fine..

What do you guys think?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, it looks like this is worthy of a dedicated subforum. Also, it is a good idea to organize the file server so the original NM1 patches and the converted ones can be kept with the same names and hierarchy.

I'm will be happy to handle any of the system administration chores to put this together, but since I gave away my NM1 when I got my G2, I have lost contact with the NM1 archives and haven't been trying out the converter program myself.

Perhaps Wout or Jan would be willing to help out and drive this one.

In the meantime, I'll set up the nm2g2 converter forum, and move this post to that forum. Thanks for the input...

EDIT - forum creation done.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Perhaps Wout or Jan would be willing to help out and drive this one.


Sure.

My own idea was to wait a bit till things stabilize and then do a conversion on all Classic patches and put the result somewhere on electro-music. The stabilization point would have to be indicated by Matt and Sven I'd say, but creating things too soon means double or tripple work.

I was wondering if the "new" G2 patches should be in the G2 patch archive as well, or shouldn't they. My own opinion is that they should be kept seperate, as otherwise it would be quite a job to maintain the downloadable G2 patch archive. But I'd like to hear people's opinion on this one.

If I read Sven's post correctly he would like the Classic an the translated patches to be in one directory tree. I think that it might be more practical to have them in two separated trees that have the same structure, i.e. sorted on author basically with two additional smaller branch/trunks for the categorized patches. My resoning is that most people will not be really interested to have both versions, and when they want both versions to be mixed that would be a simple local directory copy operation. Separation would save bandwidth - maybe not a major concern for the server, but at 300 .. 400 MB it could be for people downloading over a not so fast link.

Should we maket he archive availble on CD ?

Anyway, that's some of my thoughts, eager to hear others as well Very Happy

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3phase



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thing is that the converter places the patches automatical in the source folder..

So when we have original and conversion in the same folder we only have to exchange one file to update the whole lib because the names stay the same ..the nm1 patches stay the same and only the conversions get updated..

That has many practical advantages... when ever the converter is optimized it just takes minutes to update the whole lib..otherwise you would have to remove the originals from the conversion folders..

The Nm1 files will be an important documentation for the conversion...

sometimes the converter has to do strange thigs to simulate grey signal..a patch you can analyze quickly in the Nm1 becomes a complicated monster in the conversion..

i defenently would like to have booth files allways.. and i would prefer that this is not a hazzle...

In general i think its bad that the userbase is divided in NM1 and G2 users...
this was a bad move to split that...and separating the lib is making the gap bigger while the whole thing was ment to make it smaller...

In the end its the Nm1 lib... and its usefull to have G2 conversions there for Nm1 users aswell..they can use the G2 demo software to hear patches when teire Nm1 is not in reach...

So last but not least keeping the libs togeteher is promoting the G2 somehow...

I am not a friend of unecessary splits.. i am even not sure if the main discussion shouldnt have been in the main forum instead beeing seperated..

I was rather thinking about a subforum for the lib and related informations itself..

but however..when its a complete subforum.. i dont care..but i really recomend to keep the NM1 lib one lib and not 2
Just have booth patch formats in one lib availible.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree that the G2 patch archive should not have all of the NM1 converted patches added to it. But, if someone takes a good NM1 patch and converts it to G2 by using the converter and manually tuning it up, then that would of course be a good thing to add to the G2 patch archive on the forum - on a case by case basis. G2IAN is already doing that with some nice DX patches.l

As for the NM1 archive with converted G2 patches - it seems there are three was one can do that - maybe more.

1) mix the converted G2 patches in with the NM1 patches using the same directory structure as currently exists.

2) in each directory of the current NM1 archive, create a G2-converted sub-directory with all of the G2 files there. This is cleaner than option 1, IMHO.

3) create a separate but parallel directory structure for the converted patches. This option is probably best for people that don't have the NM1 and just want to see what the converter has provided.


Jan has a good point that when the patch converter is updated, the converted patch archive is suddenly obsolete. This suggests that it's best not to set up the converted patch archive until the patch converter is very mature.

(It is also possible to supply converted patches on-the-fly by running the converter on the server. Thus, when a converted patch is requested, the member will get the most up-to-date possibility. Maybe that last one it too fancy, and people will probably want to download the entire thing in one big zip archive anyway.)

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
3) create a separate but parallel directory structure for the converted patches. This option is probably best for people that don't have the NM1 and just want to see what the converter has provided.


And the other way around as well, people having the Classic only don't have much use probably for the G2 conversion.

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Afro88



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree with the 3rd option for when the converter is mature. But I see sven's point that in the meantime it will be useful for getting the converter fine tuned to get it uploaded somewhere with both patch files in the same location.

The best way to do this is probably use a free online hosting provider like megaupload.com or something. Then for each new converter release, upload a new zip file, no hassle for mosc. When the converter is finally mature, electro-music can host the final library. And we can use the subforum to get all excited over the old patches again Laughing
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is no prob re providing storage space for the NM2G2 Conversion project. What do you need?
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
What do you need?


The Classic zip is 145 MB, the converted G2 patches are somewhat bigger, Sven somewhere said 350 MB I think (for the combined zip), could be right.

Peanuts Very Happy

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