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FLechdrop



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout: David makes it very clear to me what I should think of such thoughts. Wink
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bachus



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FLechdrop wrote:
David Westling: You scare me. Shocked


Yea, trading one dogma for another is just voluntarily putting on another leash. That's the sane mans game and you can have it.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
What about Claude Debussy's La Mer? It is neither pattern-based nor noise.


A great piece. Definitely type 1. It is notated. You can download MIDI files of it.


My apologies - I misread your Type 1 definition. I somehow read it as "pattern-based only" and missed the part about notes, which I interpret as "defined pitches".
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David Westling



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My comments were meant primarily as a way to examine how and why "type 2 music" as it is being called here came about in the first place. Artists have, at least for the last 150 years or so, had a history of gravitating toward revolution in some sense of the term. Now the trend is "postmodern" or as I like to think of it, accommodationist. I do believe this leads to spiritual incoherence. It's just another gross error, it seems to me, to equate clarity of vision with dogmatism. There is no dogma in my theory. This involves unexamined presuppositions and an inability to welcome interrogation. No one here has come close to demonstrating that I am guilty of this. Yes, the counterculturalists of the '60s expressed the idea I introduced, that art that is not at the service of the revolution is at the service of the reaction, which seems to be so upsetting to some people here, as " if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem," and their "art", if you can call it that (mostly that scratchy rock and roll stuff), incorporated this dictum. This intersection of art and politics is potentially problematic, to be sure, and many excesses have been committed under this rubric. But there remain questions one would do well to carefully examine as one creates any form of art. For example, How does aesthetic activity, however one wishes to define such a term, stand in relation to forms of institutional power? One notes the perspective of "anti-political" artists as represented by the likes of W.H. Auden, who wrote "Art is not life and cannot be--a midwife to society." But is art indeed best thought of as a hermetically distinct form of activity that should not be brought into close proximity to the sphere of everyday life? There was a potent and influential contingent of modernists who thought that this was not correct, and for the last thirty years I have found myself in agreement with them. It's just one approach to art-making among many, and utilizing it does not ensure that one is making anything worthwhile. One has got to start somewhere, and general critique of our cultural inheritance seems the richest way to approach this form of activity for the present time.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

David Westling wrote:
My comments were meant primarily as a way to examine how and why "type 2 music" as it is being called here came about in the first place. Artists have, at least for the last 150 years or so, had a history of gravitating toward revolution in some sense of the term. Now the trend is "postmodern" or as I like to think of it, accommodationist. I do believe this leads to spiritual incoherence. It's just another gross error, it seems to me, to equate clarity of vision with dogmatism. There is no dogma in my theory. This involves unexamined presuppositions and an inability to welcome interrogation. No one here has come close to demonstrating that I am guilty of this. Yes, the counterculturalists of the '60s expressed the idea I introduced, that art that is not at the service of the revolution is at the service of the reaction, which seems to be so upsetting to some people here, as " if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem," and their "art", if you can call it that (mostly that scratchy rock and roll stuff), incorporated this dictum. This intersection of art and politics is potentially problematic, to be sure, and many excesses have been committed under this rubric. But there remain questions one would do well to carefully examine as one creates any form of art. For example, How does aesthetic activity, however one wishes to define such a term, stand in relation to forms of institutional power? One notes the perspective of "anti-political" artists as represented by the likes of W.H. Auden, who wrote "Art is not life and cannot be--a midwife to society." But is art indeed best thought of as a hermetically distinct form of activity that should not be brought into close proximity to the sphere of everyday life? There was a potent and influential contingent of modernists who thought that this was not correct, and for the last thirty years I have found myself in agreement with them. It's just one approach to art-making among many, and utilizing it does not ensure that one is making anything worthwhile. One has got to start somewhere, and general critique of our cultural inheritance seems the richest way to approach this form of activity for the present time.


And you are saying that you have the one true revolution? Your truth is the truth? Your aesthetic the only aesthetic? The best for everybody, everywhere, every time? Or am I still not getting it?

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Anyway, why not use real violins instead of a machine using samples?


Because I'd rather play my real cello? Idea

I, err, mean my 4-voice polyphonic bowable-and-pluckable physical model that occasionally goes out of tune if the temperature fluctuates too much.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
David Westling wrote:
My comments were meant primarily as a way to examine how and why "type 2 music" as it is being called here came about in the first place. Artists have, at least for the last 150 years or so, had a history of gravitating toward revolution in some sense of the term. Now the trend is "postmodern" or as I like to think of it, accommodationist. I do believe this leads to spiritual incoherence. It's just another gross error, it seems to me, to equate clarity of vision with dogmatism. There is no dogma in my theory. This involves unexamined presuppositions and an inability to welcome interrogation. No one here has come close to demonstrating that I am guilty of this. Yes, the counterculturalists of the '60s expressed the idea I introduced, that art that is not at the service of the revolution is at the service of the reaction, which seems to be so upsetting to some people here, as " if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem," and their "art", if you can call it that (mostly that scratchy rock and roll stuff), incorporated this dictum. This intersection of art and politics is potentially problematic, to be sure, and many excesses have been committed under this rubric. But there remain questions one would do well to carefully examine as one creates any form of art. For example, How does aesthetic activity, however one wishes to define such a term, stand in relation to forms of institutional power? One notes the perspective of "anti-political" artists as represented by the likes of W.H. Auden, who wrote "Art is not life and cannot be--a midwife to society." But is art indeed best thought of as a hermetically distinct form of activity that should not be brought into close proximity to the sphere of everyday life? There was a potent and influential contingent of modernists who thought that this was not correct, and for the last thirty years I have found myself in agreement with them. It's just one approach to art-making among many, and utilizing it does not ensure that one is making anything worthwhile. One has got to start somewhere, and general critique of our cultural inheritance seems the richest way to approach this form of activity for the present time.


And you are saying that you have the one true revolution? Your truth is the truth? Your aesthetic the only aesthetic? The best for everybody, everywhere, every time? Or am I still not getting it?


Ahh.. right.. but no.. David is not quite saying that I think. David´s angle seems to be pretty close to certain directions seen in threads like L'art pour l'art , Noise, tonality and whatever? and The End of Common Practice. David might want to study those threads carefully in order to get feel for what we have been battering and mending so far.

I like David´s flirt with modernism and I think it goes way deep. I tend to think that my own work is within the scope of modernism and I don´t see modernism as neither intuitively easy to grasp nor as something which is obsolete.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

David Westling wrote:
It's just one approach to art-making among many, and utilizing it does not ensure that one is making anything worthwhile. One has got to start somewhere, and general critique of our cultural inheritance seems the richest way to approach this form of activity for the present time.



My apologies I seemed to have missed this and your meaning Embarassed

A major senior moment, neither first nor last I'm sure sigh

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

David Westling wrote:
My comments were meant primarily as a way to examine how and why "type 2 music" as it is being called here came about in the first place. Artists have, at least for the last 150 years or so, had a history of gravitating toward revolution in some sense of the term. Now the trend is "postmodern" or as I like to think of it, accommodationist. I do believe this leads to spiritual incoherence. It's just another gross error, it seems to me, to equate clarity of vision with dogmatism. There is no dogma in my theory. This involves unexamined presuppositions and an inability to welcome interrogation.


David is poking some of the same fires I have been feeding re the avantgarde. The only main difference here is that I have been banging my drum and have been proclaiming that the avantgarde did in fact win. We won. Applause.

Howard´s type 1 and type 2 music theory is valid but frankly the distinction might only make sense within a short timespan, say a decade or 4. Personally I don´t see any problem with using what is often recognized as noise doing gestures that contextually might be read as tonality. Flipping the bong, as methods go these days, using clusters, audio stream formation and spectral distribution patterns, tonally kosher notated stuff can go places within the type 2 terrain that noise never could.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

David Westling wrote:
..general critique of our cultural inheritance seems the richest way to approach this form of activity for the present time.


The nice thing about general critique is that it works as a re-exploration of supposedly wellknown terrain. It is of no importance to agree on matters at this point. This is a process.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
BTW, Xenakis and I studied with the same teacher at one point.


Right, but that is not the only reason why we love you.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FLechdrop wrote:
Mosc himself indicated that a pure distinction may not be made.


Howard is quite right about that because tradition will indeed change both writing styles and perception.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
David Westling wrote:
..general critique of our cultural inheritance seems the richest way to approach this form of activity for the present time.


The nice thing about general critique is that it works as a re-exploration of supposedly wellknown terrain. It is of no importance to agree on matters at this point. This is a process.


Could you point me to an explanation of the "general critique" that could be encompassed by my presently rather limited attention span Confused

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Could you point me to an explanation of the "general critique" that could be encompassed by my presently rather limited attention span Confused


Indulge me. Ignore Wittgenstein for now, and instead have a go at Interpretation and Preciseness by [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_Næss] Arne Næss [/url]. You know Ogden already, so I´m sure you will have fun with Næss. Yet again, tradition serves well. My comment re the general critique must be seen within a context.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Robert, you just might be interested in reading his The Pluralist and Possibilist Aspect of the Scientific Enterprise.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
FLechdrop wrote:
Mosc himself indicated that a pure distinction may not be made.


Howard is quite right about that because tradition will indeed change both writing styles and perception.


I guess I will have to point out that I still see tradition as not being a static factor. This might of course be caused by the fact that norwegians will understand tradition as something that builds and evolves.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_Næss] Arne Næss [/url].


HOWARD! bug report!
The board software isn´t parsing the links correctly.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Could you point me to an explanation of the "general critique" that could be encompassed by my presently rather limited attention span Confused


OMG! Shocked I´m sorry, but I just might have been throwing bookshelves at you.

There are certain cultural differences here.

I did some surfing just now, and what I see as general critique in this context, might be really something completely different from what you are getting at.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think what was meant by "general critique" is a critical exploration of the actions and artifacts of our forebears, what were their intentions, what were the actual effects, that sort of thing. Or perhaps I'm missing the mark?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
David Westling wrote:
..general critique of our cultural inheritance seems the richest way to approach this form of activity for the present time.


The nice thing about general critique is that it works as a re-exploration of supposedly wellknown terrain. It is of no importance to agree on matters at this point. This is a process.


Could you point me to an explanation of the "general critique" that could be encompassed by my presently rather limited attention span Confused


Possibly, encompassing some of what David is suggesting, and whatever I have been shaking that pimpstick at, picture Franz Liszt and the second start of the romantic era.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
David Westling wrote:
..general critique of our cultural inheritance seems the richest way to approach this form of activity for the present time.


The nice thing about general critique is that it works as a re-exploration of supposedly wellknown terrain. It is of no importance to agree on matters at this point. This is a process.


Could you point me to an explanation of the "general critique" that could be encompassed by my presently rather limited attention span Confused


Describing the vein of the general critique of culture I am referring to is a hazardous enterprise; one is liable to distort the arguments, and even trying to provide a detailed recounting is difficult for the same reason, but I'll try for a concise version. Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, mid-nineteenth century Germany, to be exact, lived a bunch of radicals called the Young Hegelians who wanted to break away from their mentor, the great philosopher G.W.F. Hegel. This great thinker had tried to reconcile Christianity and reason but had couched his philosophy in terms of such deep abstraction that individual human endeavor seemed to recede behind an impenetrable veil. Everything was imbued with instrumentalism, that is, any given individual in Hegel's system became (at best) an agent of the historical process. This gives the State an inordinate amount of power to control individual lives, and many found this to be unacceptable. But around thrity years after Hegel's major works aappeared someone named Ludwig Feuerbach came along and criticized the Master from the point of view of religion. It's our reliance on God that has caused so much misery, he said; the emphasis on the hereafter has many pitfalls, among them the devaluation of the strivings of the underprivileged. Just accept your lot, Christianity says, it will all be redressed in the hereafter. If this train of thought sounds familiar it is because young Karl Marx took up this basic argument and brought it to a new level, one which encompassed economics. "Religion is the opiate of the people" really originated with Feuerbach. Humanity, in its embrace of the afterlife, mistook the ideal world for the real one. He spoke of a "reversal of predicates", for example, "God is Love" becomes "Love is God" to unlock the real meaning of the senitment. God thus appears as a delusional projection of our own better qualities onto an abstract plane, which creates a sort of self-alienation. A fearful division ensues, between the man as he is, and the one he would become. This idea of the splitting would eventually develop into a much more deeply articulated notion of the unconscious, courtesy of Sigmund Freud. Marx saw the implications very early; by 1843 he was writing, "The critique of society begins with the critique of religion." But Feuerbach was accused of starting the religious impulse anew by placing "Man" instead of God at the center of our concerns. "Man is for man the Supreme Being", he wrote in his seminal work The Essence of Christianity. This accusation came from the poison pen of Max Stirner, who saw religion lurking behind every and all abstractions, Man, God, Morality, Right. These all place the individual in a subservient position in relation to themselves, said Stirner in his only significant work, The Ego and Its Own (1844). Well, this work caused something of a sensation in the circles of the German and French intelligentsia of the time, but the revolutions of 1848 swept all this away with the reaction that followed. Nevertheless, echoes of this epic conflagration managed to be handed down, so that much of the revolutionary fervor that sprung up at the turn of the last century can be attributed to it. Henrik Ibsen was a great champion of Stirner, and the parallels with Nietzsche are rather obvious. There was a colony of "free spirits" that lived in the small town of Ascona, Switzerland from around 1903 to 1920 that attempted to put into practice many of the ideas which Stirner championed, free love, ending the travesty of corporal punishment, women's liberation, doing your own thing, in short, radical egoism. It was nothing less than the birth of the counterculture, as Martin Green observes in his book on the subject, The Mountain of Truth (1989).

That's about as short as I can make it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

play wrote:
I think what was meant by "general critique" is a critical exploration of the actions and artifacts of our forebears, what were their intentions, what were the actual effects, that sort of thing. Or perhaps I'm missing the mark?


Sounds really good to me, but what that really means to us ( norwegians ) might be a tad out there in Klingon territory.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:49 pm    Post subject: Re: black and white Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

David Westling wrote:


That's about as short as I can make it.


Excellent! Very Happy

Scandinavians will of course point out that Feuerbach at the time had little impact outside of Germany. We would rather suggest that Søren Kierkegaard and his Concluding Unscientific Postscript to Philosophical Fragments is the real thing.

It seems we are in bookshelves at dawn mode, so I just have to mention Paul Feyerabend. Good stuff. Quite entertaining!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It must of course be stressed that there was no such thing as Germany until 1871.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From a european perspective, Green´s book is good and entertaining but his claim re the birth of the counterculture is a bit outlandish. That simply does not compute.
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