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I worked for Apple Computers....
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IanBuzz



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: I worked for Apple Computers.... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I worked for Apple and sold Lots of computers for them and I would preach to everyone in music about how good logic is and that they should buy it. Then I talk about how I made my whole album with this software and how good it is in the Logic Forums and the admins take it down. What a slap in the face from Apple.

It was not cool working their retail end, you had to push every person to buy .Mac and ProCare and Apple Care, the only one of the three that is worth it is Apple care... and if you didn't sell (push) the right amount of ProCare or .Mac they got rid of ya... I love Apple and I've been a user for 4 or some years now and trust me you start to not like Apple once you start working for them.

Sorry just had to vent

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Isn't that sort of behaviour standard for all similar companies?
Why did you think Apple would be different?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sure, they are all the same.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Sure, they are all the same.

don't they think different Question

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
Sure, they are all the same.

don't they think different Question


Well, they do think different of sorts, but not in the retail end. They have hired retail business monsters in order to compete with the rest.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

At least Apple has strong marketing, the same can't be said for IBM who made some terrible blunders. OS/2 warp3 eats win95 alive (MacOS at that time....) , actually it eats nearly everything, it's the system of choice when single seconds of downtime don't just cost money but costs lives and potentially continents... Yet they mucked it up.

Still; just writing

THINK

in brutally simple letters apeals to me a lot more then Apple's -longer lasting- answer. It's more primal and more open.

Apples, right now, seem to me like a very smart girl that's plastering her face with too much distatefull make-up and desperately trying to talk about soccer. It's most definately apealing but I wouldn't want to deal with that on a sales level either.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: I worked for Apple Computers.... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

IanBuzz wrote:
What a slap in the face from Apple.



Well for me, the whole Apple-Attitude in the last years, really piXXed me off. I was a buyer of OS9.2 and Logic 6 and now I feel like not being a customer of Apple anymore. Why? Because I didnt update just in time? Because I didnt buy a new Computer during three years?
I dont know what I will do when my G4(2x500) will someday die...
Spend lots of money for an very old comp that is able to run OS9? Buy something newer for the same money and surrender to OSX? Or go with Windows? (XP?? Hmm.. VistaAAARGH??)
So for now I can only give my old Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen. some tendernes... "And live long..."

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I never worked for Apple, but I did work for IBM. I think working for Apple would be much more fun. IBM seems to have gotten rid of the THINK motto.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: I worked for Apple Computers.... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Himer wrote:
IanBuzz wrote:
What a slap in the face from Apple.



Well for me, the whole Apple-Attitude in the last years, really piXXed me off. I was a buyer of OS9.2 and Logic 6 and now I feel like not being a customer of Apple anymore. Why? Because I didnt update just in time?


Well, you're not the only one. I too updated from Logic Gold to Logic Pro 6 only to get kicked in the balls a mere 2 weeks later when Apple announced Logic 7- where upgrades were exactly the same price if you were moving up from Gold or Pro 6. ie, if I had only waited 2 weeks more, I could have got 7 for the same price- now I have to shell out a further £150 (making a grand total of £300). I'm even more stuffed now 'cos I've moved up to MacIntel, which won't even touch my old Pro 6 dongle.

If you want to get your own back on Apple, get the the dodgy version of Logic Express 7 Laughing , or get 'Reaper'.

Yup, not a very responsible remark from a moderator- but even us mods get pissed-off Evil or Very Mad OTOH though, I don't think I've ever worked for a company who haven't annoyed me in one way or another, but hey! We voted for capitalism so what are we moaning about??? Shocked

sink different!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I never worked for Apple, but I did work for IBM. I think working for Apple would be much more fun. IBM seems to have gotten rid of the THINK motto.


It would be a obvious joke to point out that Apple isn't that "different" anymore either. Wink (nor is MS realy anableing you to go anywhere...)

Right now I have to say I like IBM much better. Originally the big difference between IBM and Apple was that IBM kept their hardware open. Anybody could and can make IBM-compattibles. Today IBM is one of the leaders in opening their hardware to the point of donating a huge set of patents ot the OSS comunity.

For sure that's not a selfless thing, they need to in order to sell their servers which largely depend on Linux but I still like it more then what the other major players are doing.

V-un-V, I think it's quite apropriate for moderators to be outspoken. Mods do have a responcibility to give a good example but they can give a example of having a strong and outspoken opinion in a respectfull way. It'd be a crappy deal if becoming a mod meant you could no longer point out Apple, IBM and MS did some very sucky stuff. AmigaOS and OS/2 are then only two OS's that have never made me want to throw the computer from the balcony and those are in a depressing state for general purpose desktop usage.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes. If you run IBM hardware, up to huge mainframes, everything they make will run Linux, and they don't favor any distribution either. They are a great supporter of open systems. They do make great servers.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, that's a pritty big thing. If you look at other companies that sell both hard and software like Apple or MS (Xbox) or even Sony you see a very different additude.

I think IBM is being smart there. I don't see why Apple wasn't happy to hand the Linux people details of their soundcards in the Macbooks. Every Macbook that runs Linux still costs a big bag of money that's flowing directly to Apple. Especially the Ipod (considdering it's profit margin) if I were Apple I'd be more then happy to see people buy Ipods to install Linux on it since they'd buy them which is the important part if you are selling them.

Compared to the other players a case could be made that IBM is the one thinking different which is quite amusing. I'm sure it would suck to work for them too but that's a different matter. I wouldn't like to work for my local supermarket either but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the products they sell.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well they do make a good product, don't get me wrong.. but it's just like apple seems to be turning into "The Man" They are the new microsoft
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This has been going on forever. It's a lock-in instead of a monolpoly but it comes down to the same thing.

Remember a few years ago when everybody was mad with MS for bundeling it's browser and media player with the OS? Well, I have yet to see a offer for a Mac without Safari and Itunes. The whole "delete critical posts and sue people who post rumours" thing is well known too.

It's EXACTLY like MS and that's only logical since MS bought a huge amount of Apple shares, a majority even, I think. It's my theory that they wanted to keep Apple alive back then in order to avoid real anti-trust lawsuits. Personally I think that MS made Apple move to BSD as a operating system in order to try fight the desktop adoption of Linux.

Apple and MS are like the Republicans and Democrats in the US to me. You should realy move to open source, at least on one or two computers to see what it's like. When YOU buy a computer YOU should decide what runs on it and what doesn't and what the computer is doing.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Applesoft
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So, am I the only person here who actually LIKES OSX?

Sheesh, what a bunch of party poopers.

Razz

hjh

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think OS X is cool. My dayjob is managing a few networks and some dozens of workstations and servers. Of course I like OS X.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like OSX too, that is; I like the OS as a operating System and I like many of the ways it deals with abstractions and system hooks.

That doesn't mean I like what Apple is doing with it. I don't like the software it comes with aside from Xcode and I hate Aqua. I also hate the way the interface works where some program that has the focus (despite being nowhere to be seen) steals all the hotkeys. This stole the hotkeys for things like "select all files" so it litterally took me twenty minutes to give it the command to copy files from a CD to the HD on a Macbook I tried to deal with. Selecting the first fle would start some Apple thingy (quicktime or something) which then takes a age to boot (this was on a top of the line model), then sugest it get updated to a more expensive version, even dismissing that schreen to be able to close the program took a lot of time, then closing the program took more time because the buttons to do so were unlabled (how am I supposed to know what colour refers to what action? What if I would be colour-blind?) and I hit the one that made it disapear (which took more time) to some unknown location (which I had to hunt for) yet keep the focus (why on earth?) on a sort of taskbar that seemed to be borowed from the OS/2 concept but without any real understanding of why the OS/2 one worked so well. This loop repeated a few times because I still had to select the accursed files. I considder it by far the worst interface performance on any OS I have ever tried to work with (and I've seen a lot), under DOS the same task would've taken seconds. In retrospect I should've just hunted for BASH and made that full-screen, putting a sheet of paper over the touch-pad.

I'm going to be forced to get a Mac since I'll need a new computer to run some comercial software in the future and Vista is even worse but I'm not looking forward to it. Good thing you can switch Aqua off (of cource it won't easily work with Gnome or some similar windows manager) most of the time when not running anything that requires a graphical interface (like my own sequencer), de-install Itunes and so on, keep it off line (Apple's responce to security issues seems to be deleting the reports on them, then maybe fixing it at their leasure) and it should be ok. The hardware of the portables looks nice, at least. Well, aside from that logo (It's like Nike or something, do they think their users are free bilboards for advertising?).

At it's core it's not so bad at all but all the chrome on top is attrocious to have to wade through, I can only take it for a few minutes at a time.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blah, I didn't intend to go there again.

What I meant is that form is no substitute for substance. Rounded corners and designey colours (much less clever marketing) don't make Apple a good company to work for and this is akin to the interface not being the OS (despite MS and Apple trying to sell them that way).

It's not like Linux is perfect either but at least Linux is on the side of it's users, instead allowing the user some controll where this doesn't interfere with the seller's intentions (DRM, auto configuring the seller's media player and browser as default, phoning home, etc).

I think people would do well to remember that the aim of Windows isn't to help you get anything done; it's to sell Windows. The aim of OSX is the same but there it's also to sell computers (Arguably a part of the purpose of Vista is to get you to upgrade as well). Linux is meant to help you get stuff done, even when it doesn't succeed in this I think this makes it into a entirely different sort of system with a very different purpose. If Vista or OSX accidentally turn out to be good for something that's a pure side effect.

I think that would explain why selling Apples isn't such a rewarding career in the lonf run.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wink

Well, I'm glad you backed off from the more extreme claims of the gripe session. A highly amusing paragraph overall, falling neatly into my favorite category of anti-Mac screed, which (in the general form) loosely translates as "I don't know how to use OSX and I don't want to learn, which proves that OSX sucks." Rolling Eyes Perhaps that's Apple's marketing coming back to bite it on the ass. In any case, no, OSX is not perfect, but I have never had any such problems with it, and I would also say overall OSX's performance blows my win2k machine at work right out of the water. Very nearly everything is slower on my office box. (It's a Dell optiplex with a 3.0GHz cpu and 2GB RAM, not a lightweight by any means.)

Kassen wrote:
I think that would explain why selling Apples isn't such a rewarding career in the lonf run.


A critical part of the explanation is that retail is a crappy job, no matter what you're selling.

Kassen wrote:
It's not like Linux is perfect either but at least Linux is on the side of it's users, instead allowing the user some controll where this doesn't interfere with the seller's intentions (DRM, auto configuring the seller's media player and browser as default, phoning home, etc).


This is a valid point; at the same time, for all the good intentions, almost every week on the supercollider mailing list, someone is having trouble building SC on some flavor of linux and they have to go back and forth with 10-20 emails to get scons configured right. In the meantime I'm happily making music on my mac.

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If Vista or OSX accidentally turn out to be good for something that's a pure side effect.


This point is WAY overstated, and I think you know it. Yes, self-preservation is part of the point, but they can't preserve themselves if nobody can do anything with them Smile

James

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world
Quote:
A critical part of the explanation is that retail is a crappy job, no matter what you're selling.


SO TRUE... but there aren't too many retail jobs that anyone ever jumps at... I was upset because it was a product I used to preach about to my friends, and I got them on the "Mac Boat" before I started working there.... Then when I started working there I lost all respect for the company because I knew too much and everything became $$$$!.. but that was dumb of me to expect anything less from corporate America Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
A highly amusing paragraph overall, falling neatly into my favorite category of anti-Mac screed, which (in the general form) loosely translates as "I don't know how to use OSX and I don't want to learn, which proves that OSX sucks." Rolling Eyes


Wait! that's very fifferent from what I'm saying. (or trying to, at least)

I have a resonably clear idea of how OSX works and though I'm a little hazy on how it deviates from more general Unix systems in some cases (mostly to allow for a more fluid desktop usage and to provide some system hooks in a way mroe conductive to the sort of aplication it's typically used for, I think). I would most definately like to know much more about how OSX works, my beef is NOT with OSX, my beef is with Aqua. This is very different. OSX can run without Aqua and I personally saw (parts of) Aqua run on top of XP.

What I'm saying above is "I found normally trivial operations in Aqua to be very counter intuitive and hard to accomplish, especiually with the Apple touchpad". It's a usability thing. In Gnome, KDE, Windows (as a interface, I mean), Gem, OS/2 etc, etc, etc the same operation was very easy. All of those have a clearer system of window management icons that relies on pictograms instead of arbitary colour coding as well.

Let's get this clear; the first time I was on my own with DOS and without a manual I figured out the sytax for "copy" in less then half the time it took me to figure out how to copy under Aqua. Maybe I'm just strange but for me that's reason to wonder what the hell *is* supposed to be intuitive here.


Quote:
Perhaps that's Apple's marketing coming back to bite it on the ass.


That's a big chunk of it for sure. When something goes odd or counter intuitive on Linux I tend to think "hmmm, that must not be qute done yet" while with Mac's which are supposed to be intuitive and easy to pick up, where many people imply that you are actually paying extra for them to be intuitive I tend to be less forgiving.

A fair interface benchmark for Aqua usability, imho, is Gem on the Atari because Gem is very, very close to the model the Apple interface is based on. Using that as a metric and looking at how easy it is to copy some file sunder GEM and the rather remarkably large amount of time it took me under Aqua then I'm inclined to file Aqua in the "I respect you for trying but that's simply not good enough, please do try again" section.


Quote:
In any case, no, OSX is not perfect, but I have never had any such problems with it, and I would also say overall OSX's performance blows my win2k machine at work right out of the water. Very nearly everything is slower on my office box. (It's a Dell optiplex with a 3.0GHz cpu and 2GB RAM, not a lightweight by any means.)


I found that Quicktime is slow to start everywhere. Likely your Mac is indeed faster then a Windows office computer but that's not saying much since Windows must be the slowest, most bloated OS in the history of computing. That's like saying "I'm not fat, the average whale weighs a lot more", fine but whales are the largest mamals on the planet, not such a good benchmark.

When you compare OSX to *real* OS's like other *nixes, BeOS, OS/2 or even the more resent takes on AmigaOS it's looking a lot different; it's ok but not great. To me the only advantage that OSX has over these is that for OSX there are modern pro-level programs available as well as sound-card drivers for many pro-level soundcards. Most definately that's a practical reason to use it but that's NOT a feature of the OS.

The only way to make Windows close to usable is to strip it (by that I mean disabeling anything you can't positively ID as absolutely esential), tweak it, tune it and only use it for a very limited set of tasks and aplications and never ever let it get online. If you do that it's livable, in my experience. Keeping Windows running in a general office setup without slowly getting stuck requires a level of technical expertise that very few people have. I heard that even the people at MS often see no other solution then to just re-install it. It's complete and utter crap (for that task) and that's exactly why I wonder why Apple apologists (or even Apple users in general) insist on benchmarking against it.


Quote:

This is a valid point; at the same time, for all the good intentions, almost every week on the supercollider mailing list, someone is having trouble building SC on some flavor of linux and they have to go back and forth with 10-20 emails to get scons configured right. In the meantime I'm happily making music on my mac.


That's a build issue, not a Linux issue. If I'd counter that we only get a single question on building ChucK every two weeks or so on the ChucK list and that this proves that ChucK is superior to SC you'd think that funny as well. It's not a metric that proves anything.

How many SC users on OSX build their own? How many of the ones that elect to build their own on Linux could also have used the package? I build my own ChucK on Linux and got the binary for Windows. Indeed; the Linux one led to more questions but not as many as I would've had when I would've tried to build ChucK on Windows. That would've started with wondering where to get a compiler... Never seen a C++ compiler at my local Windows computer shop, it's all games and Office there.

If you are geting that many questions on building SC for Linux it might be time to start thinking about a faq on this or perhaps streamlining the process a tad.


Quote:
If Vista or OSX accidentally turn out to be good for something that's a pure side effect.

This point is WAY overstated, and I think you know it. Yes, self-preservation is part of the point, but they can't preserve themselves if nobody can do anything with them Smile
[/quote]

Well, it is clearly way overstated (but to make a point). Apple and MS seem to have the idea (and I think we can agree here) that they will be able to preserve themselves better if people will be able to do less, they haven't taken this to the degree that nobody will be able to do anything. On the Xbox and the Iphone, however, some of their latest products, they did try to prevent owners from running their own software *at all*.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To me, configuring stuff on a computer to get some tool working at home feels like torture (actually, now that I think of it, it's a similar though slightly weaker kind of panicky feeling I get when flying). If this is the case, and you can afford it, you get a PC or Mac. If some app doesn't work, I can relax with a sad shrug and accept that it will never work, instead of launching the lib-depending-on-lib-depending-on-lib... or edit three thousand esoteric config files odyssey I always seem to get when trying to install something on linux.

I know that's not completely fair, but having tried to install linux a couple of times in the past years and failing completely (I had a red hat installation working ok ten years ago, lately I am unable to get anything working at all for some reason) I have resigned to using the boxed stuff, and realize that I'm quite happy with it.

Otoh, I don't get to use Linux professionally, and I would accept configuration-mania at work if I had to.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Package managers.

If it's in the repository installing on Linux is easier then it is on Windows, these days. I'm not sure how you install things under OSX because as far as I know OSX has no package manager but hardly any shops sell OSX aplications either.

I suppose you'd have to have a credit card.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
What I'm saying above is "I found normally trivial operations in Aqua to be very counter intuitive and hard to accomplish, especiually with the Apple touchpad".


Well, this horse is already dead, and I take no satisfaction in flogging it further. One I'm saying is, if you had an inordinate amount of trouble copying some files and 9999 other people didn't have that difficulty, then your experience is a statistical outlier -- in which case, judging the entire windowing system on the basis of one (admittedly) really rough time is not quite rational.

Or, another way to look at it -- I've had thousands of hours of smooth, efficient computing in OSX and so far you reported that you had about 20 minutes of frustration. Not much of an indictment in the end, really.

Quote:
That's a big chunk of it for sure. When something goes odd or counter intuitive on Linux I tend to think "hmmm, that must not be qute done yet" while with Mac's which are supposed to be intuitive and easy to pick up, where many people imply that you are actually paying extra for them to be intuitive I tend to be less forgiving.


Okay, we're on the same page here. My conclusion is different -- I don't have time to deal with the things in Linux that "aren't done yet."

Quote:
Package managers.


Since OSX apps distribute as a self-contained package, OSX doesn't need a package manager.

Quote:
When you compare OSX to *real* OS's...


Again... not rational.

James

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