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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Simmons SDS 3 - DIY?
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The can version will fit into an 8pin socket anyway won't it?
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes it will fit in there!
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bubblechamber



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'll be getting started next week. is there enough interest to do a professional run?
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can try starting a new thread with a name that makes it clear that it is a signup for the PCB?
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bubblechamber wrote:
i'll be getting started next week. is there enough interest to do a professional run?


Any progress yet?
Can't wait till it's done Smile
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bubblechamber



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well, my PC crashed last week so I'll be starting again after I reformat my drive and reinstall some software. I should be back in the saddle next week.
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To bad your machine did crash.
Hopefully you haven't lost to much important data.

But good to know you're still going for it Smile
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bubblechamber



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i didn't lose anything important, I only use my PC for pcb layouts and running my laser printer. it's just a giant pain.
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Bubble.

Any progress?

Smile
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Simmons SDS3-DIY
Subject description: PCB's?
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mono-poly wrote:
Hey Bubble.
Any progress?
Smile


Hi All,

I'd be up for doing this PCB if Bubble gives the okay...

I could probably get it done next week. Pro Boards would be available a week or two later.

I'll take another look at the circuit to see if there is any logical break for number of voices per PCB. (Chip usage, PCB size etc.) I'm guessing that two might make sense? That's what's in the SDS4 which is supposed to be an SDS3 in half-size. But I'll go have another look to be sure.

Do we know who currently owns the rights to the circuit design? I'd like to ask their permission also if possible.

Bubble, Do you still want to do this?

I'm ready and willing, as long as no toes will be stepped on.

Randal
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bubblechamber



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

no problem, I got sidetracked with another project. thanks for picking up the slack.
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Sebo



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi:
Sorry if I'm asking too much but could you do a single sided PCB design
so I can etch it myself?
Thank you.

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Randal

Thanks for jumping in on this.
I don't know who owns the rights.
I know that simmons doesn't exist anymore.
I'd love to see just 1 channel on a pcb so i can make single modules of them.
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dave_b



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
Hey Randal
Thanks for jumping in on this.
I don't know who owns the rights.
I know that simmons doesn't exist anymore.
I'd love to see just 1 channel on a pcb so i can make single modules of them.
There are people on other forums making clones of devices that are currently in production. I'm not an attorney, but as long as you stay way from duplicating the logos and other trademarks that could be seen as counterfeiting, there shouldn't be an issue. If it was, there are some other forums that would have been shut down long ago.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is some info around, but it's a lot of work to sort it all out ...

from wikipedia

Quote:
In 2005, Guitar Center acquired the rights to the Simmons trademark and began marketing electronic drumkits under the Simmons name. These kits have no relationship to the original company.


Also read http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26796&page=4 as to why and how. This also might give a handle for finding Dave Simmons - (through a yahoo group) he probably, as a person, still owns the rights on the circuitry & stuff.

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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:56 pm    Post subject: SDS3- DIY
Subject description: Thank you Blue!
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Hello Blue and others who've given a beat to this thread.

I joined that Yahoo group the other day but didn't go through all the back posts; too busy right now. I was searching their files and pictures and links pages. So I Missed that Dave Simmons was posting there. (Or likely somebody who pretends to be him?) Thank you for the heads up. I just answered a few posts in a thread over there which may help us get what we're after.

I did grab everything I could find about Simmons on the net in an evening of hours Laughing

Guitar Center wasn't much help; but it was late afternoon Friday; so maybe this week I'll get a hold of someone. When I get free'd up from the project I've got going this weekend; I'll have a look at the patent situation. it's pretty likely that there is no longer any legal protection. But I still think it's a good idea to exhaustively search for the right answers so we can do the right thing.

I'm hearing that you guys aren't really interested in the Special effects portion? Just a voice on a card/ module? I'm still thinking doing pairs in a single module might make sense. Haven't really had enough of a look at the special effects part to know whether that's really special or not?

Gotta get back to work; I'm testing triangles for an upcoming production that mght spin some heads... Smile

Randal


Blue Hell wrote:
There is some info around, but it's a lot of work to sort it all out ...

from wikipedia

Quote:
In 2005, Guitar Center acquired the rights to the Simmons trademark and began marketing electronic drumkits under the Simmons name. These kits have no relationship to the original company.


Also read http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26796&page=4 as to why and how. This also might give a handle for finding Dave Simmons - (through a yahoo group) he probably, as a person, still owns the rights on the circuitry & stuff.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: SDS3- DIY
Subject description: Thank you Blue!
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Randaleem wrote:
But I still think it's a good idea to exhaustively search for the right answers so we can do the right thing.

I agree (one should always do what one reasonably could be expected to (do) Laughing )

Quote:
Gotta get back to work; I'm testing triangles for an upcoming production that mght spin some heads... Smile

Mine is spinning already ... triangles that do /what/ Question Anyway, make sure they'll spin the heads the right way Very Happy

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey that's some good research.
The FX channel was just a LFO to modulate the voices if i stand corrected.
So this option should still be avaible on the voice cards but then we could use external modulation sources like sample and holds or maybe even pitch the sounds. Maybe even a 1 volt/octave could be done but i dunno that much about it.
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dave_b



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There's definitely some parallel conversation going on between this forum and the Simmons_Drums list.

Have you folks ever visited the Prodigy-Pro forum? They're cloning devices that are still in production and haven't run into any issues. They design their own boards, in some cases with more care than the originals. The don't use company logos or exact model numbers on the faceplate, since that's where the trouble would lie.

From everything I've read over the years, it's completely legal to build something, just not to sell it as "the" device. Also, at least in the USA, the patents expire after 20 years and are really difficult to renew. I'm not an attorney, so take that for what it's worth.
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah i've heard about that gyraffe stuff.
Compressors etc.
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

Barring any unforseen permissions problems; which point is looking up too...

This clone will definitely happen. I've just gotten hold of some AMAZING reference stuff. (I can read the color codes on the silver mica capacitors.)

Yeah, I'm excited. Very Happy

The LFO is as you mention, Mono. It will be easy to simply allow for an input for modulation. The original LFO is a garden variety sine/triangle LFO with one interesting difference. It is time limited. So you could add modulation for a fixed amount of time. I don't know yet if you could place this time in the overall envelope; the panel controls do not suggest that you can. There is only range, waveform, amplitude and time control params.

But I haven't read the manual. yet. Shocked

The PCB pattern itself is nicely broken along the same lines as the front panel, so doing this single module is gonna be easy.

With the new info, I could now make a museum quality reproduction that you'd be hard-pressed to tell apart from an original. (No, I won't do this.)

The real question now seems to be: How exact a clone are we looking for? Cool And...

What was/is WRONG with this design/product?
What does it lack?
What were/are its main problem areas?
Anything we should be adding?

Oh well, back to the triangles... Happiness runs in a circular motion, thought is like a little boat upon the sea...

Be it sight or a sound, smell or a touch, or something inside
That we need so much...

(what a great time to be alive!)

Expect to see more on this in the coming week as I said.

Randal

mono-poly wrote:
Hey that's some good research.
The FX channel was just a LFO to modulate the voices if i stand corrected.
So this option should still be avaible on the voice cards but then we could use external modulation sources like sample and holds or maybe even pitch the sounds. Maybe even a 1 volt/octave could be done but i dunno that much about it.
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

They're cloning devices that are still in production and haven't run into any issues. They design their own boards, in some cases with more care than the originals. The don't use company logos or exact model numbers on the faceplate, since that's where the trouble would lie.

From everything I've read over the years, it's completely legal to build something, just not to sell it as "the" device. Also, at least in the USA, the patents expire after 20 years and are really difficult to renew. I'm not an attorney, so take that for what it's worth.


Prophei,

That's good to hear. But legal and ethical are not often the same thing.

If you were Dave Simmons, wouldn't you like to hear from someone who's considering selling some of your earlier work?

Even if it's not LEGALLY necessary; it seems the right thing to do?
AND, you just might get let into a world of all the NEW thoughts this person has had over the years...

Happy accidents often follow ethical actions.

God knows I wish I could get a conversation with Serge Terechpin(sp?); Rex Probe owns all rights to his prior circuits now.
Edit: That'd be Serge Tcherepnin. Might help if I get his name right! Smile

As for patents, misconceptions abound.
There's a common belief that if you don't sell it, and only make one or more for yourself, you're okay. Completely false info that is widely held to be true. (under US laws).

As you say, patents DO expire. They're not there to keep others from doing a thing forever; only to give the original creator time to profit from his or her work.

Trademarks and trade secrets are a different matter entirely.

So the bottom line is that this thing will probably happen as I get more and more into the roots of who owns it and where/why it went. certainly any technical reasons not to are gone.

I've got a couple conversations scheduled for this week; and unless something really unusual comes up; it will be full steam ahead with boards to be ordered next week.

Randal (doing product design for the last 25 years)
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ickystay



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It might be a shame to lay out such a nice filter without a resonance control and external input.
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent point!

Randal

ickystay wrote:
It might be a shame to lay out such a nice filter without a resonance control and external input.
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd love to a cv control for the pitch to.
Thanks for picking this up!
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