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U.S. Department of Peace
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kkissinger



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Makes me wonder what certain US citizens really mean by the term patriotic. Shocked


Unfortunately, concepts such as "patriotism" and "supporting the troops" and "fighting terrorism" etc... have been hijacked by the right-wing. There is an attitude that one who does not vote with the right-wing is "for the terrorists", "against our soldiers", and "down on America".

While I believe that one can love one's country and have one's own opinions, the notion of free thought is under attack here in the USA.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:

Unfortunately, concepts such as "patriotism" and "supporting the troops" and "fighting terrorism" etc... have been hijacked by the right-wing. There is an attitude that one who does not vote with the right-wing is "for the terrorists", "against our soldiers", and "down on America".


So I guess a U.S. Department of Peace is hijacked already by the gunslingers? Shocked Sad

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

Give me a break. Cocaine was removed from Coca Cola years before WW II. There was never much in the first place, but it was completely removed by 1929.


I didn't know that. I had asumed there would be cocaine in those bottles because the usage of cocaine adiction to create dependance is as typical for US forgein policy as carpetbombing is. I stand corrected on that count. It's quite surprising to me they didn't.

You didn't adress the other points in that paragraph, can I asume you agree on those?


Quote:
Many of the creative people in Hollywood during the 30's and 40's were Europeans who fled Hitler's rise to power. Most were liberals who used the movies to fire up American emotions to get involved in the war. Hollywood IS European.


I know that, of cource Hollywood wasn't about a new and independant US culture, it only had to create the *perception* of a US culture amongst US citisens.

Quote:
Racism, hatred, violence, colonialism and militarism seem pretty much to be a big part of European culture. Maybe erosion is good. Wink


I agree. However, European culture also has other elements beside those. The US media that keep flooding us have NO discernable other elements aside from the odd practice of keeping your pants on while copulatating.

Have you ever watched Dutch TV or visited a Dutch mainstream video store?

Quote:
There is nothing good that can come from exaggeration and degrading other people. Europeans should know this as well as anyone else.


Absolutely! The German Nazi's were very much typical Europeans. So were the inolved Americans, aside of cource from the soldiers of African decend but putting those int he places where thye were likely to get killed was quite European as well.

What I'm saying is that though there was a military conflict with germany on one side and the US on the other there was also a ideological conflict. I felt you were implying a few posts back that the world had the US to thank for winning the last while they were only involved in the former and the idological conflict didn't end in 1945 at all.

In fact it's my opinion that while Germany as a country lost on WWII Nazism as a ideology won and was the largest victor.

I'm not putting down just the people from the Americans, I feel both the average American and the average European is living right now in exactly the way that Hitler would've wanted. Many of the countries became like the Nazi's over the cource of WWII, some had to wait a little more before they could get in on the genocide game themselves. The outcome and aftermath of WWII *was* a disaster and continues to be so and what I'd like to know is why you think it would have been a larger disaster without US involvement.

You're mistaking what I'm saying; for sure I'm putting the US down I think it's a fashist state but I feel the exact same about many European countries. My own country stoped being a democracy years ago and is increasingly open about this to it's citisens.

In a way we're all Nazi's.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotic


I know what the word means, the question wasn't about that, the question was about "what certain US citizens really mean by the term patriotic."

Kinda like a friend of mine (he's almost two now) currently use the Dutch word for "red" to indicate he's pointing at something or perhaps to indicate a bright colour (I'm not sure). He says "rood" so often it's losing it's meaning in conversations with him.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
elektro80 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotic


I know what the word means, the question wasn't about that, the question was about "what certain US citizens really mean by the term patriotic."

.


I know you know and yes Very Happy , but the wikipedia entry is kinda amusing because the implications are... well.. you have probably noticed already...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

I know you know and yes Very Happy , but the wikipedia entry is kinda amusing because the implications are... well.. you have probably noticed already...


Yeah, I find this especially interesting;

Quote:
Governments promote an official patriotism which has a high symbolic and ceremonial content. It is a logical consequence of the state itself, which derives legitimacy from being the expression of the common good of the political community.


Do modern countries realy still have a true "common good" and a "political community"? I think what those two mean is at the very least evoling rapidly over the last centrury. It stands to reason that "Patriotism" will have to evolve as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
You didn't adress the other points in that paragraph, can I asume you agree on those?


That would not be a great assumption. I don't feel the need to agree or disagree with everything that is said.

Unlike our President, I don't think complex things are either 100% good or evil. This includes even the Nazis, and the terrorists responsible for 9/11, and Bush himself. I do think it's a stretch to say that Nazism won even though Germany lost the war, but it is a viable opinion. Super highways, Volkswagens, jet and rocket engines, etc. seem to be more German than Nazi. The Nazis didn't invent propaganda or genocide, but they were really good at it.

While the US is not 100% good, it seems to me the world is better off that they didn't remain neutral in the European war.

Sometimes being neutral is appropriate. Right now, what about Darfur?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

While the US is not 100% good, it seems to me the world is better off that they didn't remain neutral in the European war.


Ok, I get that, but *why* do you say so?

What exactly is the disaster you were talking about that was averted by the US? How was it averted? I'm honestly curious because I have no idea at all what you are talking about.

I don't realy look at the parties as devided on a good<=>evil scale. I think most parties and fractions can be placed on a selfish<=>gullible line though.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why?

Would you rather Holland be ruled by Nazis, or, under your best alternative, Stalinists?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I don't realy look at the parties as devided on a good<=>evil scale. I think most parties and fractions can be placed on a selfish<=>gullible line though.


Where do you put yourself on that scale?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
mosc wrote:

While the US is not 100% good, it seems to me the world is better off that they didn't remain neutral in the European war.


Ok, I get that, but *why* do you say so?

What exactly is the disaster you were talking about that was averted by the US? How was it averted?


Understanding history is a concept which really does not completely compute. As to the why stuff happens, the reason is often buried in time and won´t really make as much sense now as it did then.


The valid policies at the time would indeed suggest that the US would involve itself in a war in Europe. The guy who was up the creek was Roosevelt who promised the voters that there would be no more wars like the Big One.

In retrospect it seems like a series of accidents unleashed what we think of as World War II and the outcome was just as accidental.


But.. which disaster did the US avert? It depends on what you mean by disaster, but obviously the US involvement changed the outcome of the European war. The war ended a year or four earlier than expected.
The US contributed a lot to the destrcution of german cities, but chances are that the Bomber Command would have torched all major german cities. US involvement meant that the the large industrial targets could be targeted. British policies at the time supported the idea that factories need workers and workers can be killed. It was british strategies the US adopted later in the war.. and also in Vietnam. Firebombing Tokyo? Nagasaki and Hiroshoma? These would be very typical british acts of war.

Hitler´s death camps would also have been far more effective had they been kept in business for say 4 more years.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
It was british strategies the US adopted later in the war.. and also in Vietnam. Firebombing Tokyo? Nagasaki and Hiroshoma? These would be very typical british acts of war.


I guess the British might have gotten the idea from the Germans, don't you think? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And yes, Stalin would have not stopped his european tour in Berlin..
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Firstly the rulership of holland;

I think the statement that Holland wasn't ruled by Nazi's after the war is very much open for debate. Did you know that during the war parts of the Dutch royal family secretly negotated with the Nazi's about resuming leadership of a Nazi-Netherlands after the war? Fair; they weren't formally members of the Nazi party during their rule but at least you can say they wouldn't have objected in the slightest.

Anyway, it's a very hard question. Ethically I feel slightly more affinity with Communism then with Capitalism but in practice it turned out to suck just as much. Communism had nicer clothes and architecture, Capitalism has nicer food. I'm torn on this topic. I think that the people that lived under Communist Eastern Europe have a tendency to say they were better off then then they are now but you have to wonder wether that might be a exageration and if not (I think they may well be right) wether that would also aply to the Netherlands (probably not). If it would be possible to choose for real I think I'd take a gamble on Communism over the current situation but that's idle talk since I have no choice and as I mentioned; I don't even get to vote.

About that scale; I think I'm roughly in the middle with regard to most political situations, probably edging towards the gullible side in social matters and definately towards the selfish side in technical matters. I tink I'm most definately more "Evil" then "Good" on the scale of the sort of person who likes scales like that, and I'm fairly content about that.

Can I now please hear about the disaster that would have happened and that was worse then what we got?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
It was british strategies the US adopted later in the war.. and also in Vietnam. Firebombing Tokyo? Nagasaki and Hiroshoma? These would be very typical british acts of war.


I guess the British might have gotten the idea from the Germans, don't you think? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz


I see, but no. The actual ideas of taking out populated areas predates WWII and must be seen related to how the British Empire did its business in the colonies. Also please consider that this new vision of modern air warfare was seen as the only way to prevent trench warfare. You should look up the Trenchard school.

I have some british instructional material here somewhere. Pretty chilling.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
And yes, Stalin would have not stopped his european tour in Berlin..


Right and my central point is that THAT is why the US got involved and that the US involvement wasn't at all about the Nazi's and how evil they were from a US perspective because *they weren't*. Untill Stalin's offensive forced the US to fight Hitler it was pritty cool for the US elite to be members of the US Nazi party and in the mean time a nice sum could be made selling weapons to the UK.

The whole US-Nazi opposition on supposed ideological ground came quite late in the game and the ideological side was bolted on in a way that makes the search for WMD's in Iraq look sensible.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
And yes, Stalin would have not stopped his european tour in Berlin..


Right and my central point is that THAT is why the US got involved and that the US involvement wasn't at all about the Nazi's and how evil they were from a US perspective because *they weren't*.


Well, I tend to think this is not a completely valid concept. Please consider how events were understood at the time.


trivia:
see the timeline for december 1941:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_World_War_II

Also consider how a war of this scale between superpowers will kill access to raw materials and markets. The US had no other option ( considering what the US was at this time ) other than play the game and hope for the best.
A reason to worry was also that analysts started to understand that the 3rd Reich would not be reliable trade partner. There was simply no way that a Nazi Festung Europa would mean good business. By 1942 many german industrialists were seeing this as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

But, by summer 1944 it was something else. By this time the US had reliable and conclusive intelligence that the Stalinist war machine was far stronger than expected.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

Well, I tend to think this is not a completely valid concept. Please consider how events were understood at the time.


Well, at what point would you say then that the average US citisen started to see the Nazi's as "evil"?

Quote:

Also consider how a war of this scale between superpowers will kill access to raw materials and markets. The US had no other option ( considering what the US was at this time ) other than play the game and hope for the best.


Absolutely. What I'm aiming at here is that US neutrality would predominantly have been a disaster for the US itself.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Communism had nicer clothes


Shocked

arrow http://www.rkka.ru/iuniform.htm

Rolling Eyes

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Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex - Frank Zappa
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Italian uniforms
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it is known that Italians have nicer clothes than Nazis and/or Commies Idea
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
elektro80 wrote:

Well, I tend to think this is not a completely valid concept. Please consider how events were understood at the time.


Well, at what point would you say then that the average US citizen started to see the Nazi's as "evil"?.


From the point they were told that the nazi´s were evil!
Laughing

Not quite true.

The US press was a bit psychotic at this stage, but I think you might want to visit a library and check out large US newspapers from say 1935-1942. You´ll be amazed. In more than one way.. Shocked

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
it is known that Italians have nicer clothes than Nazis and/or Commies Idea


I know. Laughing

You guys also have a mean pinata stick!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Italian uniforms

click on "Japan" the guy looks suspiciously "Italian" Shocked

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