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U.S. Department of Peace
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
Italian uniforms

click on "Japan" the guy looks suspiciously "Italian" Shocked


So does the Hauptmann in the Luftwaffe in flight jacket

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
seraph wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
Italian uniforms

click on "Japan" the guy looks suspiciously "Italian" Shocked


So does the Hauptmann in the Luftwaffe in flight jacket

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

it must be a masonic conspiracy Twisted Evil

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Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex - Frank Zappa
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Absolutely. What I'm aiming at here is that US neutrality would predominantly have been a disaster for the US itself.


Aha! Yes!
It is impossible to stay neutral on a moving train.

I guess most analysts of the day would have expected the US to kick into war mode far earlier than the US actually did. It is simply unbelievable that Hitler/the Axis powers did not make any serious moves in order to make sure the US got what the US wanted in order to stay out. Well, it isn´t really that hard to understand. Politically the Nazis and the fascists were space cadets of the most wasted kind. Amateurs and mindless jerks.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
seraph wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
Italian uniforms

click on "Japan" the guy looks suspiciously "Italian" Shocked


So does the Hauptmann in the Luftwaffe in flight jacket

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

it must be a masonic conspiracy Twisted Evil


It must be! Shocked

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EOT

(End Of Thread)

Next?

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Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex - Frank Zappa
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

not yet. Shocked Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK
keep goin'

Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Kassen, I would not have been better off if the Nazis would have won. The best I could look forward to would to be a lamp shade.


Well, my father would have died as a prisoner in Buchenwald. So.. no me..
I reckon also electronic music would be on the entartete kunst list.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I deleted that but you answered too fast. I'm glad your father survived.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

I guess most analysts of the day would have expected the US to kick into war mode far earlier than the US actually did. It is simply unbelievable that Hitler/the Axis powers did not make any serious moves in order to make sure the US got what the US wanted in order to stay out. Well, it isn´t really that hard to understand. Politically the Nazis and the fascists were space cadets of the most wasted kind. Amateurs and mindless jerks.


All quite valid and this is the sort of thing I was hinting at.

The US won in the end, at least on the propaganda front which is waht matters in hind-sight but I can see no real historical foundation for the sort of self-less heroism the propaganda presents. That's my issue, no more but certainly no less.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

What I'm aiming at here is that US neutrality would predominantly have been a disaster for the US itself.


Yes. This is true. But then Germany declared war on the US.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Kassen, I would not have been better off if the Nazis would have won. The best I could look forward to would to be a lamp shade.


Stole the quote, sorry, but this needs adressing.

First; I feel for you. My own father was briefly in a camp since he was a Dutch soldier at the time, I talked with Jewish people that were in different camps; I'm quite aware of that situation. I think I've made it quite clear in the past that I'm completely opposed to any sort of racism what so ever as well. I don't even recognise "race" as a valid concept.

That being said;

It's quite true that some camps were liberated by forces that contained Americans. However; let's please get things straight. The camps that were liberated by forces containing Americans were liberated as a side-effect of other factors. They would have been liberated without the US as well, I think. Recent research in Europe shows that a majority believes that the Allied involvement in WWII was mainly about the holocaust but that's not true at all, the holocaust wasn't widely admitted to existing even. Secondly once those camps were dealt with on a military level it took quite some time before the people were taken care of; the soldiers that were there seemed unable to deal with the situation in many ways. Thirdly that liberation only affected a part of the prisoners; Jews were indeed liberated but homosexuals went straight to prison. This is a utter disgrace that we (wester cultures) like to forget about but it did happen. Somehow people now hold that the holocaust was about the extrmination of the Jews and homosexuals, gipsies and communists are forgotten, probably because the "man in the street" still often distrusts those, exacly like the "man in the street" that voted for Hitler in democratic elections.

While apealing on a romantic level the idea that the US as noble knights went in to liberate the camps from the evil Nazi's is just not true. Most definately lives were saved and for others weeks or months of terrible suffering was saved but it's not a episode that was without terrible disasters and great embaracements in hindsight which is eactly why it isn't reported on.

Another matter is the west European Communists. Only recendly did they get public recognition for forming the lion's share of the "resistance" and they did suffer for it and many died. After the war during the "restructuring" ("rebuilding", hard to translate) their political influence was pushed back, largely influenced by US presure backed by Marshall-help. Only a few years later "Communist" had become a dirty word and the idea took hold that the US had liberated Europe. At least for the Netherlands that's patently untrue; hardly any US forces were here. Canadians, yes, Australians too, I think, but hardly any US troops at all. This propaganda-based idea was still being tought in schools when I was in them but it's a deliberate lie.

We are still living this lie. I'm not even sure US nuclear arms have yet been completely removed from the Netherlands. We're still supposed to send Dutch soldiers to the midle-east to support US led wars based on argumentation that -below some covers- is based on this lie.

To return to your quote; indeed you might otherwise have died and that's very sad but today people are still repaying for a mis-representation of that situation with their own lives. People that weren't even born back when you could have died. Their lives are worth something as well and that's very sad as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Kassen, I would not have been better off if the Nazis would have won. The best I could look forward to would to be a lamp shade.


Another thing; if you hold that I think people would have been better off if the Nazi's would've won you realy need to re-read what I wrote.

I said most people in Europe *might* have been better off in the long run if the US had remained neutral. I also said the Nazi's *did* win in some (non-military) sense.

I never said what you implied I said here.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I said most people in Europe *might* have been better off in the long run if the US had remained neutral.


I dunno. Might.. ? Most likely not at all.... but please elaborate.

There are way too many IFs here.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I also said the Nazi's *did* win in some (non-military) sense.


I noticed. I am still pondering on that one. scratch

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
While appealing on a romantic level the idea that the US as noble knights went in to liberate the camps from the evil Nazi's is just not true.


This is correct and hardly controversial.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We need to differentiate between understanding and excusing why events and processes occur
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Kassen wrote:
I said most people in Europe *might* have been better off in the long run if the US had remained neutral.


I dunno. Might.. ? Most likely not at all.... but please elaborate.

There are way too many IFs here.


There are too many IFs but Mosc presured me to make a choice.

I don't see that many differences between (Russian) comunism and (US) capitalism in the end result. Under (US) capitalism people are poor (it's a third world country if you look at the numbers), so were they under Russian communism. The main difference is in the presentation of your poverty; capitalism says you are poor but *could* be rich if only you'd work harder (never mind that the richest people generally hardly work at all), comumism says you're poor but this is because everybody has the same amount and you would likely be more poor under capitalism (never mind that the equality thing doesn't realy hold up). Neither has/had a real democracy, basically you can only vote for the president put forward by The Party(s).

So; for me if my country had to be a part of either the choice comes down to the details and that that point things like healthcare start to become rather significant factors. And, well, yet again; the people that experienced both tend to want a return to communism, I think.

That's why I think western Europe might well have been better off had it been conquered/liberated by Russia then by the US and it's commerades.

Mostly people here will disagree. I think many of EM's members are from the US and clearly (since they are able to buy 2000$ synths) they are amongst the richer classes so for them capitalism is working nicely. For the average man (which I think we should considder since we are talking countries, not individuals) it's quite different. I think that for the average man capitalism v.s. communism is about a very slight amount of hope v.s. some modest security.

Right now I'd say Europe is better off then both but I don't think that's because of it's liberation by the western allies, more like despite of it. The largest result of that was the poliitcal and cultural influence of the US and that factor is still growing. Europe (at least the Netherlands) is becoming more like the US by the year.

I sugest a test. I sugest we go out on a Dutch shopping street and ask random passers by about their favourite musical act and favourite movie. We'll quit as soon as somebody mentions something that's not from the US. After this experiment (which may well last hours) tell me again the Netherlands was "liberated" and not "conquered".

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I sugest a test. I sugest we go out on a Dutch shopping street and ask random passers by about their favourite musical act and favourite movie. We'll quit as soon as somebody mentions something that's not from the US. After this experiment (which may well last hours) tell me again the Netherlands was "liberated" and not "conquered".


Right. And since we have discussed similar stuff in orther threads you might already know that in Norway local artists are more popular than american. The sale of US made pop music is hitting an all time low.

Anyways, aren´t we discussing several different issues here? Shocked

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Right now I'd say Europe is better off then both but I don't think that's because of it's liberation by the western allies, more like despite of it.


Well, did we forget huge US investments in Europe? The Marshall Plan thingie? US army bases meant US dollars too. Continental Europe did well with US help.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

Right. And since we have discussed similar stuff in orther threads you might already know that in Norway local artists are more popular than american. The sale of US made pop music is hitting an all time low.


Well, considdering the drastically different history of Norway in the second world war I'd say that supports my stance more then it denies it.

Quote:
Anyways, aren´t we discussing several different issues here? Shocked


Yes, quite a few but that comes with the teritory.

A "depeartment of peace" that would just work towards peace would be a wonderfull idea but in practice such a department can't operate in a vacuum. Similarly you can't realy have a good -say- agricultural policy without considdering matters like economy and forgein relations/ trade/ etc.

I don't think you can talk about peace realistically without considdering why people wage and waged wars. Practically with international afairs and trade being what they are a large part of favouring peace in a given situation involves favouring who is ruling and how in that situation. You can see this quite clearly right now in Africa where civil wars are borderline ignored because economic interests are low and thus so is the urge to help work towards peace. If there would be even a very small (relatively) civil war in Germany, France or the UK nations would be jumping and shouting to imediately have more peace departments everywhere.

So; yeah, several complicated issues at once and many emotions but isn't that preferable to simplifying the matter too far?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Communism in Europe wouldn´t be communism but instead a rather uncool Stalinist regime. Vastly overstretched at the time, coping with supplies, rebuilding and defenses, Stalinist Russia wouldn´t have had a chance to make a cosy and and trendy East Berlin out of Europe. It would be more likely that we would have been looking at famine, disease and camps yet again.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

Well, did we forget huge US investments in Europe? The Marshall Plan thingie? US army bases meant US dollars too. Continental Europe did well with US help.


I'm not forgetting those; that's exactly what I'm talking about.

What if right now Iran would start organisations in the US to help poor, unemployed Americans get healthcare and invest in the US economy right now and would match these with Iranian military bases in the US that wouldn't engage in war and would bring Iranian money into the US.

Tell me wether the US would
A) fear for political influence and immediately declare war/ sanctions

or

B) jump in delight over the economic effects.

What about if France did?

If Iran or France would take these steps, what would be the plan behind them?

I stopped playing CIV after I started winning every game playing exactlty that way and it got boring and lengthy.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hilarious! Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Hilarious! Laughing Laughing Laughing


If only.

Did you ever play Civ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_(computer_game)

I don't like the last one because you can't sponsor terorism anymore but it basically covers all of this.

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