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 Forum index » Reviews, Editorials and Commentary » Commentary and Editorials
Net music piracy 'does not harm record sales'
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It does not quite work that way really. Also remember that they have taken into consideration that both distributors and retailers are taking their cut too.. and the damned artist is supposed to get his cut. Now that the prices are slowly being lowered by many labels, this is intended to show up as a reduced retail price. Artist marketing is mostly dead these days. What they market is the actual CD product. They can invest in an artist, but never longterm. They aren´t really doing branding when they push an artist and his latest CD. What they do is simply pushing the product it itself.


[img]All i know is, to pay more than $10 for a cd is the same thing as paying $100 for a car wash by a crippled blind deaf/mute...[/img]

I see what you mean, but I disagree. What do you get when you buy a music CD? And I am not thinking of a CD with music you hate by some artist you hate, but a CD with music you actually love.. You favorite artist..? What do you get? Ahh... you get a lot.. and that makes 10 or 20 USD seem like a decent price.

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redskull



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I understand your [/img] there elektro Laughing

Well said though, and I can see how a price for a cd can be justified if you love the artist in question, but, unfortunately, I havn't found an artist I love that much in years Razz
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

redskull wrote:
I havn't found an artist I love that much in years Razz


Truly unfortunate. I suggest you buy an Amy X Neuburg CD immediately...

Get it here: http://electro-music.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=47
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

YES YES YES YES.... huh... Shocked
Right.. and I have to do that too..
Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I see what you mean, but I disagree. What do you get when you buy a music CD? And I am not thinking of a CD with music you hate by some artist you hate, but a CD with music you actually love.. You favorite artist..? What do you get? Ahh... you get a lot.. and that makes 10 or 20 USD seem like a decent price.


So where is this great CD produced by a label that's bringing lawsuits against their customers? They make utter crap. I've stayed away from this issue lately because it seems pointless to argue over when, likely, none of us actually buy OR download music from RIAA companies. They're business people whose model is failing because people want music not feats of marketing acrobatics. The only companies that have taken legal action on this issue are the monolithic corporate entities.

Show of hands. Who here gives a shit about Sony or Virgin or Universal, etc.?
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redskull



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I showed sony as an example only. Giving a shit about them is not the issue. The issue is, will apathy cause more erosion in the future for those of us with a little bit of artistic integrity? Will mega-syndicates like Sony end up telling us musicians when where and how and why? You'd be surprised how much can change, when the whole "business model" is controlled by influential muscle, being flexed by the "bigguns". It is dismissive to simply assume ignoring this issue from their vantage point will go away. That is their strategy, convince the struggling music maker that he or she is a non-issue to them, and swat them down later, when they attempt to grow bigger pants. I see it daily...
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well.. while we ignore it.. the majors are changing the legislation. Cool! Shocked
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redskull



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I always like how what you say is said in one line, and yet takes me a paragraph elektro! Laughing
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

THX... well.. hmm.. noone listens anyway... Shocked Very Happy
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redskull



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On the contrary...The circkets listen Laughing
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Tim Walters



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some facts for the mix:

--The average CD retail price (Q1 2004) is $13.29. Nowhere near $20.

--That's $6.97 in 1982 dollars--right around a typical LP price.

So CDs aren't overpriced historically. How about in terms of supply vs. demand? Well,

--CD sales have been going up steadily since late last year (right around when the RIAA started cracking down--coincidence?).

So that doesn't seem to fly.

What about the manufacturing cost? It's irrelevant. Music is software, and the cost of the medium never has any bearing on the cost of software. All the real costs are in development.

So claims that CDs are overpriced are, in my opinion, flat wrong.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good points! The CD itself is not what this is about.
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egw



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To me, CDs are overpriced because they cost more than I'm willing to pay for them. Maybe if the music was better...
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well.. that is something else completely. But does that mean that you would buy music you don´t like if you could get that music cheap? .. Shocked


Very Happy

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Tim Walters



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
To me, CDs are overpriced because they cost more than I'm willing to pay for them. Maybe if the music was better...


Well, that's a matter of taste, and so beyond argument. But I have to admit that I tend to doubt the sincerity of highly active downloaders who simultaneously claim there's no good music out there. (That's not aimed at anyone here, but if the shoe fits....) Personally, I have no trouble finding CDs worth $15 (Placebo Merchant by Mutation Vector being a prime example), just as I had no trouble finding albums worth $7.00 in the early Eighties. Less trouble, actually, since so much more of the world's back catalog is available now than was then.

For me, mp3s are the replacement for radio and mix tapes. They're great for finding out about stuff, but I find myself listening to something regularly, I feel like I should buy it (or trade for it).

Of course, the recent mania for copyright extension has kept prices artificially high for a vast amount of stuff that should rightly (and constitutionally) be in the public domain. One could argue that anything older than 28 years (the original copyright term) should be fair game.
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Wan



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
redskull wrote:
I havn't found an artist I love that much in years Razz


Truly unfortunate. I suggest you buy an Amy X Neuburg CD immediately...

Get it here: http://electro-music.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=47


Okay, listened to the mp3's and decided you were suggesting right...

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egw



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You're right, it's possible to find CDs that are worthwhile. Often I get them by trading with people I've met here. This costs me a lot less than $15 and usually the music is more interesting than typical commercial CDs. (I'm talking about trading artist to artist, not pirated copies, also I only download music offered free by the artist) There is plenty of good music out there for free. When I've exhausted that, I'll start buying CDs, though honestly I can't afford to spend much on them.
Yes, it's a pity that artists have to give their music away, they should be compensated. But the more unusual and creative the music is, the more likely it is that the only people who appreciate it are other artists. And artists tend to channel most of their (usually limited) discretionary funds into their own endeavors.

Tim Walters wrote:

Well, that's a matter of taste, and so beyond argument. But I have to admit that I tend to doubt the sincerity of highly active downloaders who simultaneously claim there's no good music out there. (That's not aimed at anyone here, but if the shoe fits....) Personally, I have no trouble finding CDs worth $15 (Placebo Merchant by Mutation Vector being a prime example), just as I had no trouble finding albums worth $7.00 in the early Eighties. Less trouble, actually, since so much more of the world's back catalog is available now than was then.

Last edited by egw on Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
In the IC (chip) business there was a running joke. "We loose money on every chip we sell, but we make it up in volume."


Walmart often forces producers to operate on the same logic. Blew up in their face with pickles though. A while back, Walmart wanted to offer a gallon of pickles for 5 dollars...not for practicality, just for show I suppose. So Heinz had to increase their production drastically (which was already economically balanced according to supply and demand) and hired more employees than they've ever had in order to meet Walmart's demands (a scary example of mega-corporation power). The result was the realization that nobody wants that many pickles, the gallons of pickles didn't sell, and the pickle industry was shafted.

/tangent
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was wondering how that giant jar of pickles ended up in my kitchen.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bread and Butter pickels are my favorite.
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redskull



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cheddar
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...the olives I tell you.. the olives..
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dmosc



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To Quote Tim Walters:

--CD sales have been going up steadily since late last year (right around when the RIAA started cracking down--coincidence?).

The only real way piracy affects CD prices is that big market comapnies can use it as a scape goat for raising their prices! There's nothing more amusing than watching Bill Gates complain that people are taking money out of his pockets by stealing Microsoft Windows and the same goes for sony. If piracy dropped off in numbers, they'd probably raise their prices from "more demand"!
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Oskar



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd like to mention radio formatting. Apart from a few independent, mostly student radio stations, and (here in Norway) one or two maverick radio hosts, you're not vey likely to hear anything on the radio that will make you go, "YIKESWHATTHEHELLISTHATITFEELSSOGOODITMAKESMYEYESWATERIM USTBUYTHISRIGHTAWAY!"
Radio stations - even Norwegian state radio - are so focused on ratings that they daren't play anything that hasn't been approved of by the formatting committee. I find it ironic that after the fall of Communism, Western Culture is becoming ever icreasingly streamlined - I think someone called it a "monoculture" - good word, I'll steal it! Cool
Now, even though I think the CD prices are WAY too high, I don't mind overmuch having to feed a few sharks if some of that money reaches an artist I feel deserves to have a livelihood. What makes me furious is the arrogant way in which retail chains and major labels treat me like dirt for having a slightly broader taste than they'd like me to - "Whaddayamean, you won't buy Bryan Adans instead of Tom Waits? They're both gravelly voiced singer-songwriters, aren't they?" Oh, BOLLOCKS!

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bleep



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I recentlyty had an interesting discussion with my guitarist. He thinks that:

1. Music is mostly regarded as cheap, easily accessible entertainment (and not an art form) which should be freely downladable.

2. The medium (CD) lowers the value of the art. Because it's so cheap to manufacture a CD and anyone can do it, people tend to devalue the actual music on that CD.

Could these be some of the reasons for declining CD sales? People don't see the value of CDs and music on them and are not prepared to pay money for crap that lots of labels (major and indie) are producing.

Call me idealistic, but if the stuff on the CDs were real, valuable art that is marketed as such, maybe sales figures would go up?

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