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Intra-Synth mixing/patching
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: Intra-Synth mixing/patching
Subject description: Suggestions welcome
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In another thread I mentioned:

Quote:

I would like to be able to mix various VCOs from different semimodular kit, for instance, my Wretch and the M5N, and I'd like to be able to effectively use the signal ins and outs from the Voyager and the Poly Evolver too. A patch bay is only part of the problem; granted, the issue of centralising the various signals so it's easier to patch between them is primary, the issue of having some control over levels will be naturally evident. I might also want to mix post-filter pre-VCA in the signal chain.


Rather than steal someone else's thread I'd like to start my own thread on this. There are a few approaches I can see, but I haven't really made up my mind on which approach I would like to use.

Part of the problem is the somewhat sprawling nature of my studio, I don't want to run tons of loose patch leads all over the place. I could run some looms from (for instance) the backs of the Voyager and Poly Evolver, and more from the M5N, and the 2600 when it gets here.

So it becomes a question of how best to integrate a bunch of semi modulars. I was thinking of a 1U mixer, and a patchbay, but then most 1U mixers are overkill unless I can use more than 1 bus to send signals with. Also I'd be concerned that the mixer doesn't mess with the raw output of the VCOs, so I can budget for a nicer mixer with less inputs. Smile

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I´m a big fan of integrating all sorts of studio outboard with the modular patching. There were a few mid/late 70s DIY projects for gain adapters and swedish company even made a kind of 16 channel paired thing with the usual -10/+4dbu switches on each channel. It kinda worked.

First of all, you might really want to look into this one:



http://www.cyndustries.com/modules_anything.cfm

Ze blurbie:
The Anything Module is a send/return type interface that turns all your effect boxes, stomp boxes, and processors into synthesizer modules.

Want to process your oscillator cluster through that vintage Ibanez fuzz? Or maybe you want to hear what a reverberated transient sounds like controlling your Modcan VCF. Need a fixed filter bank? Just patch-in that equalizer you've got laying around. The possibilities are obviously endless.

Modular synthesizer voltage levels can reach 30Vpp at clipping. In contrast, a guitar stomp box is made to handle about 0.2Vpp - over 40db difference! Until now, it was difficult to marry these two worlds. The Anything Module takes care of this for you by attenuating the synthesizer down to "consumer" levels on the way out, and amplifying the external effect back up to "modular" levels on the way back. Low-noise amplifiers are used throughout in true variable-gain configuration. This means you hear your effect, not the noise of the recovery amp.

You get adjustable send and return controls with red/green LEDs showing you proper recovery level so you get it right. The Anything Module features a mono section and separate stereo section. You can process your old Univox tape echo and a Midiverb (in stereo) at the same time. You can also use the recovery sections alone to bring in things like tape decks and CD players. This changes everything... um, I mean anything!



But... who knows .. perhaps Thomas Henry, Scott Stites or some of our most excellent DIY masters are hard at work designing the ultimate 8U mega integrator device?

That said, a lot of my signature sounds and my production workflow are exploiting this kind of signal routing.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From your previous posts in that other thread somewhere I´m guessing you are thinking about signals from the modular not taken from the line level audio outputs. The module mentioned in my post above is OK for integrating standard studio gear with modular synths, but it seems to me you might also need a mixer suitable for modular signal levels.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Intra-Synth mixing/patching
Subject description: Suggestions welcome
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EdisonRex wrote:
In another thread I mentioned:

Quote:

I would like to be able to mix various VCOs from different semimodular kit, for instance, my Wretch and the M5N, and I'd like to be able to effectively use the signal ins and outs from the Voyager and the Poly Evolver too. A patch bay is only part of the problem; granted, the issue of centralising the various signals so it's easier to patch between them is primary, the issue of having some control over levels will be naturally evident. I might also want to mix post-filter pre-VCA in the signal chain.
n budget for a nicer mixer with less inputs. Smile


That other thread is this one: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-17744.html

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There could be some info about this in the DIY section here, I tried a search on "mixer control voltage" which didn't show up anything useful, there was some discussion about this or similar though ... maybe posting a question in the DIY section might help.

Anyway, a normal mixer seems to be not so useful here.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Anyway, a normal mixer seems to be not so useful here.


Indeed, a standard studio line level mixer wouldn´t do what EdisonRex is looking for, but then he is also clearly asking for at least two types of signal handling here. ( This is not completely clear from his initial post in this thread, but he elaborates on the issues in that other thread. )

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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Blue Hell wrote:
Anyway, a normal mixer seems to be not so useful here.


Indeed, a standard studio line level mixer wouldn´t do what EdisonRex is looking for, but then he is also clearly asking for at least two types of signal handling here. ( This is not completely clear from his initial post in this thread, but he elaborates on the issues in that other thread. )


Yes, this is true, which is why I am having the problem in the first place.

This subject actually started in http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-16602.html which is where thermionicjunky put the bug in my ear, so to speak. The issue I am having is that there are (at least) 2 signal levels to deal with, plus probably CV as well. It's getting to be a more interesting problem the more I look at it. The patch integration is the easy bit.

I'll look at the CynIndustries... This may accelerate my finding a modular rack format (another problem, another topic).

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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Layers of the onion. The more I look at this problem and peel back a part, there's another layer.

I'll document this here for other intrepid followers who just happen to have a bunch of mismatched signals they'd like to mate.

Elektro80 and co are right, there's an issue thermionicjunky didn't illuminate further in his discussions over in Metasonix (go find it yourself if you're interested). The issue is that I will need to mix different levels. The Cynthia module might be a "panacea" but I'm not convinced yet. So much to look at.

What is clear is that I will need to build it, I don't think anybody's building what I want. I figured out last week I would need a modular case, it's going to need to fit the studio, and hold the unconventional modules. This is part of that.

I'll argue about format later. I'm now focusing on a couple of mixers. One should be like the "Cynthia" (or whatever) module, but I need a CV mixer too, and more sophisticated than the Moog modules I bought. The CP-251 is okay, but is not going to do, nor is it doing, what I think I need. ]

The AC-coupled side of the problem is relatively easy, just we have level matching issues. I'm going to have a more serious think about this. Stein made me think more. Thanks, by the way Wink

Anybody else who's putting together a multi modular studio who wants to avoid mixing after the VCAs is welcome to pipe in. I can't be the only guy with this problem, even if I might be the only one right now bitching about it.

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
What is clear is that I will need to build it, I don't think anybody's building what I want.


That's the reason I tried to guide you to the DIY section Very Happy

Yes you'll probably have to build it yourself, but I think others have gone that way before you.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
EdisonRex wrote:
What is clear is that I will need to build it, I don't think anybody's building what I want.


That's the reason I tried to guide you to the DIY section Very Happy

Yes you'll probably have to build it yourself, but I think others have gone that way before you.


Oh, I'm in the DIY section, I didn't ignore you. Laughing

Yes, others have gone before, but not my way Wink

But yes, thanks, you know I do take you guys seriously! You can ask why anytime.

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I hope this is the start of something huge! We need gear that does what you want. I guess we are looking at a more extensive version of the Cynthia anything module, and a huge CV mixer.
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know about huge yet. I'm beginning to get an idea though, and talking it out helps me a lot. I will switch the topic to the DIY section when appropriate, but I haven't got that far yet. I'm just getting started here.

It's beginning to look like a module, though, sort of like that Cynthia one but we're not there. Damn but it's going to take some panel space too.

Thanks you guys. It's not easy to always do things right, and I really (really!) want to get what I want, I've long ago learned that you get the sounds you want from the hardware you "get". Which is why I have such a strange collection of hardware anyway. Maybe I do have to build what I want, because nobody else has built it yet.

This isn't a bad thing. But I have a few carts to put in the general vicinity of my horse, first.

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tomorrow (bank holiday!) I will sit down and quantify what I need. I think I'm seeing it better now. Now to sleep and dream.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Isn't it just a case of a number of level shifters normalled to some (or all) of the inputs on a CV mixer, the output/s of which are normalled to a number of level shifters?
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
Isn't it just a case of a number of level shifters normalled to some (or all) of the inputs on a CV mixer, the output/s of which are normalled to a number of level shifters?


For the CV part, sure. Good idea, actually. I am thinking scaler/shifters.

So the "shift" part is just DC bias (or offset). The "scale" part is slope, not "level", although it's really just amplitude I guess. I'd want a bunch of them, say 4-8, with a "offset" and "scale" for each channel. To be truly useful it should be calibrated, say -10 to +10 volts offset, and scale should be 0 to 200%. Something like that. It'd need to limit itself to +/-10V, but that's not hard to do.

The signal mixing component should be able to accept 10V p-p and scale to 5 or pro audio levels (much like that Cynthia module except for the 10V P-P part). I'd be really concerned about noise going from the 0dBV or 0dBu to 5V or 10V P-P. More likely -30dBV to something like 5V would be typical. I'd think I need to worry about the gain.

This isn't a classic line mixer stage. And come to think of it, these input stages could be used as standalone signal amplifiers.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On cleaning up my bookmarks I found http://www.soundsculpture.com/products/cosmix_specs.htm , it may be interesting in the context of this topic.
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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some interesting attributes to that product. It doesn't mix CV though.
And what's this "no VCAs"... Ok, I guess that's ok. Specs are nice.

No UK dealer either. Hmph.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No it's not DC coupled indeed, but it can run pretty hot signals.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
No it's not DC coupled indeed, but it can run pretty hot signals.


+-15 "with a jumper"... indeed.!

I'm going to talk to these folks. I'll report back. As much as I want to design a "proper" mixing module, I'm not good at it. Exclamation

The DC coupled side is still a big problem. I really think the CP-251 is a cop-out. This mixer is way underdesigned. It's barely OK even for Moog modules.

Onwards. Thanks for the link anyway, Jan.

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