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Fritz chaos circuit
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well thats why i am asking if i did it right. But ian, how can i do it that way if i dont have more panel space? in other words, i built it into a box as i have NO more space on my rack. is there a way to get around this and still make it external?

thanks

(wasnt trying to ignore your original advice, just didnt know how to do it without tearing apart my original vco)

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

also, could someone explain why this method ends up only getting 10:1 attenuation? this is one of those areas that i think it would be good for me to understand better.

thanks

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
well thats why i am asking if i did it right. But ian, how can i do it that way if i dont have more panel space? in other words, i built it into a box as i have NO more space on my rack. is there a way to get around this and still make it external?

Well, you wire it up like the diagram shows. Period. It doesn't matter if the wiring is in the box or in the panel.

OK, here it is step-by-step:

1.) Connect the top of the pot to the driving signal (the chaos generator).
2.) Connect the bottom of the pot to ground.
3.) Connect the wiper of the pot to the 1V/Oct VCO input.

What you are doing is adding a resistor in series with the 100k input resistor. So you reduce the driving signal by the ratio (100+1000)/100, which is 11/1.

You need to study your basics more. There is a very clear explanation of how opamps work in the EN MEH chapter 3. You need to go over and over this until you understand it and can apply it to simple circuits.

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i dont have that EN book but i should get it. i do have the builders guide and preferred circuits but not the other one (i was afraid it would be too math based)

i wasnt picking up on the fact that i needed to wire it up as a three wire pot, not a two wire pot. i do know the difference but dont always understand when one is called for or not.

believe me , i know better than anyone that i need to understand the basics. but its easier said than done. i am reading books on this stuff everyday but if it gets too technical (math based) i get so lost so quickly. nicolas collins book is one of the only ones i can think of where everything makes sense. i own and read horrowitz and klein and EN and the cmos and ttl and opamp cookbooks,and the vco cookbook,etc, but most of it goes over my head. I am hoping that in time though, it will make more and more sense.

if only i had a live person to go over this stuff with....or a basic electronics class..would that help?

(i mean the theory of operation not the pictures Wink


thanks as usual

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:35 pm    Post subject: thanks a million!! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

IAN-thanks a lot! i rewired it (this was driving me crazy last night as it was really working more like a low pass filter than a volume control (when i ran audio through it)

only took 2 seconds to rewire and now its allowing me SO much more control of the chaos cv.

maybe i will make some more samples;)

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: thanks a million!! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
only took 2 seconds to rewire and now its allowing me SO much more control of the chaos cv.
maybe i will make some more samples;)

Yes, PLEASE. It's very important to me to find out how people use these new concepts.

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i will post some tomorrow for sure. i am starting now to see if it has any applications for more moderate use like as a vibrato alternative or on the flip side, as a trigger or gate signal. maybe i need to build an audio to gate converter (i think ken stone has one on his site? )

sure is fun though...driving my wife nuts

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
... i am starting now to see if it has any applications for more moderate use like as a vibrato alternative or on the flip side, as a trigger or gate signal.

Yep. My TGTSH was developed specifically to use with the chaos circuits to derive discrete voltages as well as chaotic timing evente (with gates and triggers).
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-17989.html

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ian-i am tempted to make one of those but it looks very complex (five chips on a breadboard is a bit much for me)

any comments on how hard you think it would be on strip/perf board?

thanks

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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dan, glad you are getting things to work.

When I started to learn electronics I took a course at a local community college. It was a fantastic experience. In those days these were free, but even today I think they are cheap. Anyway, it's a great way to get some of the basic principles. I liked my community college course so much I went on to get a masters degree in EE at Berkeley and ended up at Bell Labs. We all have to start from the beginning.

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
ian-i am tempted to make one of those but it looks very complex (five chips on a breadboard is a bit much for me)
any comments on how hard you think it would be on strip/perf board?

I'd say it's more of an intermediate to advanced level circuit. I did a quad unit on a perfboard, but it was a pretty long job. That's why I went with a dual for the PCB version.

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i really do want to start making a new chaos circuit but i am out of commission at the moment with a kidney stone...ahhhh..its been a rough few nights.

(still reading about circuits and posting though)


what would you recommend i make next of your chaos circuits?

samples will be arriving once i am walking around again

thanks

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yikes, Dan. Take care of yourself. My dad had a couple of those; very painful. Be well...
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ringer



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Ian,

I would like to thank you for the circuits. I am enclosing 4 pix of the stuffed boards. I am currently designing the front panel.

It will be a chaos pot-pourri module including the Jerkster, the EZ Chaos and the Threshold/Gate/Trigger/Sample/Hold circuits. To make the module a complete system on it's own, I will be adding 2 Buchla LoPass Gates derived and enhanced from Fonik's version, plus the Thomas Henry Super Controller and a pair of A/D A/R generators.

I have a question, on the Combination Threshold/Gate/Trigger/Sample/Hold Circuit web page you write,

"I have made a short sound clip of it operating on the output of a slightly modified version of the EZ Chaos system. (The modification is the addition of an extra cross-coupling within the circuit.) ".

Would it be possible to further expand on this modification, and if possible, could you please post a schematic, so I can breadboard it and try it out. I am finishing up the modules this evening in a prototype box, based on a Serge rox box I use to test circuits in the real world with my modular.

Here is a pic of the EZ Chaos Board, I used electrolytics instead of tantalums and polystyrenes instead of the Mica caps. Will the circuit function properly or should I change them?

Next is a pic of the Threshold/Gate/Trigger/Sample/Hold circuit, I noticed your board has the 4 bottom right transistors coloured red, are these matched and should I match mine? Should I use polyfilm caps like the 2 red ones or keep the yellow mono's I have?


I will post pix and mp3's once everything is completed and fully integrated, again many thanks .

Cheers,
Ringer


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goldenechos



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ringer wrote:
Hi Ian,

I would like to thank you for the circuits. I am enclosing 4 pix of the stuffed boards. I am currently designing the front panel.


Cheers,
Ringer


Nice boards, are these the ones Ian was selling? Or did you make them yourself?

Tony
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ringer wrote:
I would like to thank you for the circuits. I am enclosing 4 pix of the stuffed boards. I am currently designing the front panel.
It will be a chaos pot-pourri module including the Jerkster, the EZ Chaos and the Threshold/Gate/Trigger/Sample/Hold circuits. To make the module a complete system on it's own, I will be adding 2 Buchla LoPass Gates derived and enhanced from Fonik's version, plus the Thomas Henry Super Controller and a pair of A/D A/R generators.

Hi Ringer --

Thanks! You're going to have a nice toy there. Cool

Quote:
I have a question, on the Combination Threshold/Gate/Trigger/Sample/Hold Circuit web page you write,

"I have made a short sound clip of it operating on the output of a slightly modified version of the EZ Chaos system. (The modification is the addition of an extra cross-coupling within the circuit.) ".

Would it be possible to further expand on this modification, and if possible, could you please post a schematic, so I can breadboard it and try it out.

It's further up in this thread -- just look for the scribbly drawing on May 7. You will need to cut one trace, as shown by the wiggly line, and tap into three points on the circuit for the signals, plus three for the power.

Quote:
Here is a pic of the EZ Chaos Board, I used electrolytics instead of tantalums and polystyrenes instead of the Mica caps. Will the circuit function properly or should I change them?

Those substitutions are fine.

Quote:
Next is a pic of the Threshold/Gate/Trigger/Sample/Hold circuit, I noticed your board has the 4 bottom right transistors coloured red, are these matched and should I match mine? Should I use polyfilm caps like the 2 red ones or keep the yellow mono's I have?

The transistors can be any switching devices. No need to match. I have no idea why mine are colored -- they're some old surplus I picked up years ago. The yellow monos are fine.

Can't wait to hear some demos! Don't hesitate to ask if you have more questions.

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well good news on the chaos front.

I FInALLY got around to etching a pcb of a tiny SAMPLE AND HOLD circuit.i tried it out with lots of different inputs and it was alright. BUT then i hooked the EZ chaos to its inputs (the ez chaos was being driven by a constant 20hz square wave-i seem to get good results with that)


wow. it sounded even more like a "self evolving" staircase then white noise did!!

i will get some samples up in the next day or two but my feeling is that the two were made together (and i know Ian has a circuit for chaos with a S+H in it.


anyway, next step is to try to learn how to use a comparator to derive gates or triggers....or maybe an envelope follower would do the trick?


ITS amazing how much mileage i have gotten out of that ez chaos circuit!


thanks

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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just wanted to express my interest in these circuits. I missed the pcb run unfortunately. But I am hoping that some of these designs may get printed again in the future...
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RF



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
I just wanted to express my interest in these circuits. I missed the pcb run unfortunately. But I am hoping that some of these designs may get printed again in the future...


I would second that... I don't know where I was when the PC boards were announced... Sad
If you ever decided to do another PCB run I'm sure there would be interest.
Either way, thanks for the sharing of your Idea circuits, Ian.

bruce
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:01 am    Post subject: NEW SAMPLES Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok. a little while back i mentioned using the EZ CHAOS CIRCUIT with a sample and hold. (RW single chip sample and hold)

And i promised samples. Well after editing the sessions I got some samples that I think are a good indication of how the ez chaos can be used to influence a patch. in these samples, the EZ chaos was fed a 20hz square wave, or it was a fed a sweeping sine which swept from 20hz to 100hz.

this various outputs from the EZchaos were used to provide CV, OR to provide the signal for the sample and hold (the single chip sample and hold has no input for external clock)


On the other side of the coin, these samples also exhibit the vco being modulated by lfo's, filters by lfos,etc..there is lot of modulation going on.



one of the samples starts with the sample and hold operating BEFORE the ez chaos has been turned on. its a striking difference-it goes from a repetitive pulsing to an almost free jazz like series of notes.


If you cant tell, i love the way the Ezchaos works with a sample and hold.

if only now i can figure out a way to build a CV quantizer, i think these note patterns could really be useful in a melodic song context.



anyway...enough talk.


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RF



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shocked
LOL - That easy chaos is completely nuts!
I have absolutely no clue how to make it musical - but that's my own issue I'll have to try to deal with. Confused

Loss1234, I think I'll build up one of those R.Wilson Sample and Hold circuits like you did...
Back to the perfboard....

Thanks

bruce
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah the nice thing about that sample and hold circuit was how easy it was to make.

i ended up etching it too.



almost done with the jerk circuit now!!

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok i am now done with the jerk circuit.

no time to post samples as i have to go to work but i have a few questions Ian

1. something i am noticing (and i have noticed it with the ez chaos as well) is that often when i go to turn a knob, (the knobs arent on panels yet) if i touch the knob in the back of the knob or in the wrong place, the circuit goes crazy for a second and almost sounds like a spring...hard to explain but i only get it with these 2 circuits...i imagine its because my body introduces resistance but i was wondering if this is normal.

2. can i use a vactrol for the rate pot?

3. are there any methods you would recommend with the jerk for finding the chaos? same basic setup method as with the EZ or something more critical? i dont have a scope so...

4. why did you recommend a slider for one of the pots? just curious.

5. for fine tuners,,,can i just put a second pot in series and make that 2nd pot a very small value by putting a resitor across its outer terminals?

thanks all!

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
ok i am now done with the jerk circuit.
1. something i am noticing (and i have noticed it with the ez chaos as well) is that often when i go to turn a knob, (the knobs arent on panels yet) if i touch the knob in the back of the knob or in the wrong place, the circuit goes crazy for a second and almost sounds like a spring...hard to explain but i only get it with these 2 circuits...i imagine its because my body introduces resistance but i was wondering if this is normal.

No idea. But if you touch two terminals you will decrease the resistance quite a bit.

Quote:
2. can i use a vactrol for the rate pot?

Probably, but I have never tried it.

Quote:
3. are there any methods you would recommend with the jerk for finding the chaos? same basic setup method as with the EZ or something more critical? i dont have a scope so...

See p.3 of this thread.

Quote:
4. why did you recommend a slider for one of the pots? just curious.

Huh? I never did that.

Quote:
5. for fine tuners,,,can i just put a second pot in series and make that 2nd pot a very small value by putting a resitor across its outer terminals?

Sure. The parallel combination will be nonlinear, but the range will be correct.

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ian-yes you did ask for a slider Wink

EDIT: boy do i feel dumb...Ian was just explaining how to wire up the pots Sad
---------
look:

page 2 jerk board pdf:

"on pots, (1) is CW, (2) is slider, (3) is CCW"

anyway, thanks for answering my questions!

this circuit is even more intense than the EZ.

Smile

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