electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
go to the radio page Live at electro-music.com radio 1 Please visit the chat
poster
 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
How to add harmonics BELOW the fundamental frequency?
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Nord Modular Editors
Page 1 of 3 [58 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 473
Location: London, England
Audio files: 27
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:17 am    Post subject: How to add harmonics BELOW the fundamental frequency?
Subject description: (Question, not answer)
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi there everyone! Very Happy

I often have a problem with sounds that have no/few low frequencies... for example strings/pads:

How can I add 'some' extra frequencies BELOW the sound's fundamental frequency? If I add an extra oscillator an octave below, it doesn't quite have the right effect and neither does simple equalising.

Now I know that the lowest frequency is generally supposed to be the fundamental frequency and I need this frequency to remain fundamental, but I just need to thicken the sound somehow... Rob's tilt filter doesn't help in this situation either. Confused

Anyone have any ideas??

_________________
transformer Sheridan

Hear music and Nord Modular G2 patches and find out music production tips at
http://www.nitetimeproductions.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Any examples of what you have there that needs thickening?


This is an interesting question. Traditionally this "thickening" would be done by using several instruments. Consider how parts for a double bass, the cellos etc. will thicken and widen the sound of "strings".

Try to listen to stuff like Pergolesi´s Stabat Mater and Mozart´s Requiem. try to figure out why it sounds the way it sounds. Even if you cannot quite completely place each instrument and voice hidden in there, I´m still sure you will get the main concepts really fast.

Mahler as well as Wagner would be next I think.
As for detailing tricks and the unexpected and interesting.. in a modern way of sorts.. try the Soldier´s Story ( Stravinsky ). You may want to listen to Wagner again after Stravinsky. Interesting stuff.

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: How to add harmonics BELOW the fundamental frequency?
Subject description: (Question, not answer)
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
I just need to thicken the sound somehow.


This is complex but possible very easy too. Shocked

I´m still not comfortable with the "pad" terminology so I won´t commment on this using the word "pad"

I suggest you don´t think in terms of the tools used, but rather in terms of music, voicing and how you want it to sound. Then you do whatever is called for.

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Slightly OT:

Consider the use of mellotrons, solina´s and what have you, the rock musician´s idea of handling this would be instant "strings" in a rock musician´s usual rockish "chordy" manner. This rarely works well.
The reason string sections in classical music sounds like string sections in classical music is mainly because of how the music is written and slightly less about the instruments used.

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I´m moving this ( and keeping a link in the current Clavia hierarchy ) to Composition. Very Happy
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think that Sheridan does not want to throw in an extra part here but wants his sound for one part to have more "body".

Usually I try this by getting some "dirt" into the sound, like for instance adding a sub octave from a logic divider circuit and then either mix that in (maube filter it first) or use it to modulate something. That can be self modulation of phase, or filter frequency modulation or distortion modulation or whatever. It could even be FM on the original oscillator, but then the feedback should go through a high pass filter to get the DC out.

Otoh it might be that the voice is in the wrong range and that it needs to be brought down an octave or even two while at the same time adding some interesting stuff in the harmonics, For instance by not using a low pass but a high pass filter rather set to accent the first harmonic or something - which will suggest bass more than actually having it. Maybe add some distortion followed by another (modulated) filter (low pas) set to resonate a bit.

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: How to add harmonics BELOW the fundamental frequency?
Subject description: (Question, not answer)
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:

Now I know that the lowest frequency is generally supposed to be the fundamental frequency and I need this frequency to remain fundamental,


Could you expand a bit on what you mean by that statement ?

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could you post an mp3 of a bit of what you are talking about? That might make a lot of things clear.
_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kijjaz



Joined: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 765
Location: bangkok, thailand
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have an idea for what you're after.
it's something i done with some sounds many times..
for example, a very dry and thin Claps that need some more bass + groove in it. etc..

I use "Overdrive" .. and sometimes Distortion / Fuzz.

but try some different wiring for each case.
for example..

EQ -> Drive -> EQ..
Multiband Compression -> Drive -> EQ..
EQ -> Drive -> Multiband Compression

it can produce some drived bass parts mixed with the same sound.

but if you still wanna have the dry sound not driven
try keeping the dry sound..
then create another effect chain and 'Send' the dry sound to it..
and use EQ -> Drive -> EQ or just EQ -> Drive or just Drive -> EQ
to add the low drived part to the sound without making the whole thing go dirty.

this is one idea.. the result can vary a lot with different kinds of EQ / Multiband Compression / Overdrive Type
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What Kijaz sugests roughly comes down to how a tubescreamer (and many other tube-emulations) works; overdrive and roll off the high-end. It's a great way of adding body (tubescreamers can also boost higher harmonics, but that doesn't matter here).

What a typical sub-octave generator does is clock-devide the input signal at the zero crossings. For every two zero crossings in the input you get one back, resulting in a square-wave tuned a octave below the original input (idealy, you may need to LPF the input). You can mix that in straight but with it being a square it'll have some higher harmonics which may need to be filtered out.

Clearly those methods can be combined; do roll your own because standard sub-octave generators are aimed at general purpose situations and with a modular you can do way better for speciffic sounds.

It's likely also worthwhile to look up the infamous "what is BASS???!!!" topic on this site which deals with related matters (as well as social behaviour, headroom, psycho-acoustics, linguistic confusion, blown speakers and sex)

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The What is bass thread is good for some ideas. However, I´d still like to hear some of Sheridans examples before we take it into the sex zone. Laughing
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
before we take it into the sex zone. Laughing


There is no "before". Part of our brain we share with reptiles, this is the most primitive side of our brain. Reptiles use growls while mating; a lower growl means a larger chest so a more fit mate. This is why teenagers like bass in their clubs, this part of our brain processes info faster then the rest (but not as fast as the part dealing with the ears which delivers the data and which can be tricked!).

This bit of the brain doesn't care about good taste in internet posts, I fear.

:¬p

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know what "overdrive" is. I'll go looky on the wwwwwwww
_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That did not produce unambiguous results. So, I still am not clear.
_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I don't know what "overdrive" is. I'll go looky on the wwwwwwww


Traditionally a guitar amp being turned way up, nowadays a sort of a general name for a type of harmonic distortion that tries to emulate that effect. For the Clavia Nord Modulars it's an effects module that can be thrown in, its not a very accurate replica of the guitar amp effect but it does add harmonics and makes some pleasantly fuzzy stuff out of certain input signals.

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bachus



Joined: Feb 29, 2004
Posts: 2922
Location: Up in that tree over there.
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
bachus wrote:
I don't know what "overdrive" is. I'll go looky on the wwwwwwww


Traditionally a guitar amp being turned way up, nowadays a sort of a general name for a type of harmonic distortion that tries to emulate that effect. For the Clavia Nord Modulars it's an effects module that can be thrown in, its not a very accurate replica of the guitar amp effect but it does add harmonics and makes some pleasantly fuzzy stuff out of certain input signals.


Ahh. As in driving a device into saturation. Thanks.

_________________
The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 473
Location: London, England
Audio files: 27
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Ahh. As in driving a device into saturation. Thanks.


Overdrive is less about satuartion and more about clipping I think... the term overdrive (as Jan says) was originally coined when guitarists 'over-boosted' the level of their instrument past the optimum signal to noise ratio and into distortion land.

_________________
transformer Sheridan

Hear music and Nord Modular G2 patches and find out music production tips at
http://www.nitetimeproductions.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 473
Location: London, England
Audio files: 27
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I´m moving this ( and keeping a link in the current Clavia hierarchy ) to Composition. Very Happy


Not sure why this was moved, for it IS a G2 specific question... I don't have this problem with other sound sources. Maybe I didn't mention that, but as I was posting in the G2 section, I didn't think I needed to... but oh well! Very Happy

_________________
transformer Sheridan

Hear music and Nord Modular G2 patches and find out music production tips at
http://www.nitetimeproductions.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 473
Location: London, England
Audio files: 27
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for all the idea, fellas. Very Happy There are some interesting ideas there and I'm embarrased not to have thought of some of the simpler ones myself! Embarassed

Unfortunately, I have an assessment coming up at uni soon, so don't really have time to record and post an example at the moment, but I will return to this post when I have more time.

I like the simplest idea about using a sub oscillator and filtering out (lowest) frequencies that are too low... why didn't I think of that??!! Embarassed

I'll try them all and see what works. Very Happy

Bachus, the bit I wrote about the fundamental frequency just meant that the notes are in the right frequency range, but if I add another oscillator one octave below, then that would then lower the fundamental (most audible) frequency and move the notes into an undesired frequency range... hmmm, that's probably not any clearer! Very Happy

_________________
transformer Sheridan

Hear music and Nord Modular G2 patches and find out music production tips at
http://www.nitetimeproductions.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
I´m moving this ( and keeping a link in the current Clavia hierarchy ) to Composition. Very Happy


Not sure why this was moved, for it IS a G2 specific question... I don't have this problem with other sound sources.


OK. I moved it back. It´s just that I´ve heard similar complaints re the Roland Rs-09, the Solina, the Elka, the Roland jupiters, the M-Tron, the CS-80 and even upmarket samplesets. Laughing

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jima



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Stourbridge, West Midlands UK
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
Overdrive is less about satuartion (sic) and more about clipping I think...


I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this. It is entirely the saturation effects which ensue when a valve-driven magnetic core (which don't hard clip like our digital products) is over-driven and delivers such a rich plethora of augmented harmonics and intermodulation by-products that it pleases the brain in some way (no doubt the reptilian part of the brain which Kassen refers to Smile ).

There is a case to be made, I think, that pure fundamental sounds (pure sine, square, triangle etc.) are really uninteresting to the brain and a large part of synthesis is becoming adept at 'dirtying' them up in an interesting and pleasing way.

It just occurs to me that this is no doubt why I find Ms. Westenra so uninteresting to listen to Very Happy

Sorry I don't actually have an answer to your question.

Jim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sheridan



Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Posts: 473
Location: London, England
Audio files: 27
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jima wrote:
It is entirely the saturation effects which ensue when a valve-driven magnetic core...


Nobody said anything about valves in these guitar amplifiers. Very Happy There is no saturation on amps wiithout valves, instead clipping occurs.

_________________
transformer Sheridan

Hear music and Nord Modular G2 patches and find out music production tips at
http://www.nitetimeproductions.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe an interesting read, some old article about tubes vs transistors : http://www.dwfearn.com/tvst1.htm
_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jima



Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Stourbridge, West Midlands UK
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
Nobody said anything about valves in these guitar amplifiers. Very Happy


True enough!

Quote:
There is no saturation on amps without valves, instead clipping occurs.


Perhaps that is why valves still seem to be the preferable choice?

Jim

(P.S. interesting read, Jan, thanks for the link)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fozzie



Joined: Jun 04, 2004
Posts: 875
Location: Near Wageningen, the Netherlands
Audio files: 8
G2 patch files: 49

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sheridan wrote:
jima wrote:
It is entirely the saturation effects which ensue when a valve-driven magnetic core...


Nobody said anything about valves in these guitar amplifiers. Very Happy There is no saturation on amps wiithout valves, instead clipping occurs.


I agree with jima (not that it's that import); in guitarist idiom 'overdrive' is mostly used to indicate saturation / valve-like distortion, while 'distortion' is mostly used to indicate more harsh clipping effects, but it's not black and white of course.

On the reptile brain issue: such theories have a bit too much popular psycho-biology content for me buying them without a doubt. There are many possible alternative theories that could be thought of but since sex-linked theories are inherently 'sexy', they seem to appeal to many people. Must be a freudian inheritance.

_________________
Spinning at ~0.0000115740740741 Hz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Nord Modular Editors
Page 1 of 3 [58 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use