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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Thomas Henry designs
Know When to Fold Them
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Thomas Henry



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:12 am    Post subject: Know When to Fold Them
Subject description: (But I find Kenny Rogers repugnant anyway...)
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I'm getting quite excited about the impending UD-1 board, intending to build four for my drum system (1 bass drum, 2 tom-toms and 1 woodblock/miscellaneous). I already have an ADV-Bass, ADV-Snare and Clangora, so this should make a pretty hot drum kit.

Obviously, I'm going to need some hardcore mixing facilities to take care of all this. I had thought about building up a mixer with a few features, and then decided to see what commercial gear was out there and at what price.

Take a look at this (and this isn't an advertisement):

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Xenyx-1202?sku=631265

I got this unit a couple weeks ago for $90 from Musician's Friend and couldn't be happier. There are plenty of inputs for all of the drums, effects loops and very decent tone controls. The sound quality is excellent and there is no discernable noise or hiss.

Even though I have always been a hardcore DIYer, there is no way I could have built such a unit at anywhere near this price (not to mention the time invested).

So I've changed a little. I will continue to design and build the weird, the wild and the abnormal. But for e-drums, I'd rather pay under a hundred bucks to have someone else do the grunt work of mixing things cleanly and elegantly.

Again, I have nothing to do with Behringer and have no commercial interest in this creature. But I sure think it's the perfect fit with multiple DIY drums. I love it and am getting another one for non-drum mixing as well. I wish this unit had existed back when I played in a three-piece and all we needed was a half-dozen inputs. We used to travel with a system that weighed some thirty pounds and didn't do as much.

Thomas Henry
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para



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i have to assume that you are not aware of this but Behringer is the last company on earth i would think you would support considering your stance on intellectual property rights.

just type "behringer lawsuit" into a google search

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-US&q=Behringer+lawsuit

that company is known as the “thief“ of the audio industry


these are just a few quick random articles i found but there are so many more


http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=3184
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1997_June_18/ai_19518852
http://www.gearjunkies.com/news_info.php?news_id=1187
http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=3184


also keep an eye out for their new line of EHX pedals.


http://www.behringer.com/VM1/index.cfm?lang=eng
http://www.behringer.com/VD1/index.cfm?lang=eng
http://www.behringer.com/VT999/index.cfm?lang=eng
http://www.behringer.com/VT911/index.cfm?lang=eng
http://www.behringer.com/VP1/index.cfm?lang=eng
http://www.behringer.com/VB1/index.cfm?lang=eng

and so much more



steven
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I dunno, I guess for being a company which basically works in the ultra no-budget product segment they do offer impressing products. However, a Behringer mixer is not a Midas or Speck, but then that is the whole idea behind the products.

BTW: I recently considered helping out a friend with some mods on a Behringer "tube" preamp.

Enjoy:
Modding a Behringer T1953

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
So I've changed a little. I will continue to design and build the weird, the wild and the abnormal. But for e-drums, I'd rather pay under a hundred bucks to have someone else do the grunt work of mixing things cleanly and elegantly.


I've come to the same conlcusion on a couple of things - one is the mixer, there's no way I could improve on any mixer that's out there. Of course, not simple synth mixer modules, but the final mixdown mixer or percussion mixer (either of which I still don't have BTW).

The other area is in reverb and delay. There's just no way I could economically build or reproduce the fine quality of, say, a Lexicon algorithm - ain't gonna happen. Last winter I purchased an MX200 - it was inexpesive and I personally love the thing.

Now, having said that, it doesn't mean I won't still build time delay stuff - as nice and pretty as the MX200 can make things, there are things it just simply can't do. I was shuffling through some of my old disks and ran across some experimentation I'd done with the PT2399. That little chip under voltage control can run rings around any rack mounted high dollar device anywhere for doing certain very cool things (it's my dream that some day Thomas picks up one of these and gives it a thorough technical exploration like he's done with the VCO chips).

And, I've never heard a digital flanger that tripped my trigger like a BBD based flanger; pretty much the same goes for chorus. And phase shifting, gimme analog. For spring reverb, nothing tops a....well....spring reverb. I suppose the same could be said for tape delay, too, though I have little experience in that department.

Cheers,
Scott

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Thomas Henry



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:
i have to assume that you are not aware of this but Behringer is the last company on earth i would think you would support considering your stance on intellectual property rights.


Well, it shows what I know. This is the first piece of gear I've purchased in over twenty years. (As you might know, I believe in DIY). I had never heard of Behringer and moreover had never heard of Musician's Friend. I was so tickled with the mixer I wanted to report it. But if they're truly ripping people off, then I'll back off.

Thomas Henry
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thomas Henry wrote:
para wrote:
i have to assume that you are not aware of this but Behringer is the last company on earth i would think you would support considering your stance on intellectual property rights.


Well, it shows what I know. This is the first piece of gear I've purchased in over twenty years. (As you might know, I believe in DIY). I had never heard of Behringer and moreover had never heard of Musician's Friend. I was so tickled with the mixer I wanted to report it. But if they're truly ripping people off, then I'll back off.

Thomas Henry


Since you bought it, be happy with it.

The Behringer wars continue. much like the Mackie/Tapco ones. I personally am glad that you've decided to devote valuable time to more important innovations.

Wink

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't rate Behringer but do actually own one of their little mixers - its been really useful to have around. I don't use it much these days, but there've been many times when the features and size have been useful for me or to lend to someone. Much of their stuff I'd steer well clear of really though...

I've also built a few mixer designs recently - figure both the DIY and bought routes have places depending... My really major DIY request was for lots of routing -- I want several auxes! Thing is, sometimes I'd really like a little bit of simple eq - that sort of stuff is really useful - not only have I not really done much in the way of standard tone control, but also its damn hard getting it compact.

Yeah, then there's the repetition -- I'd no way do anything without pcbs 'cos a stripboard repetition would 100% drive you nuts.!. Recently I've used a sort of buss-board method that seems to be good -- everything comes out on pinheads and then a long bit of stripboard joins these together (--multiple inputs on a simple inverting mixer circuit)

I think I'm a lot with Scott on ideas around the delays -- guess its all down to character. A commercial unit can often give such power features you'd never get on a DIY --- but you get a sound (and maybe ethos / feel) through wierdy-er home-grow routes (yeah, I like the pt2399 a lot too)

Horses for courses, maybe. I've not come to any conclusions?!

Here's some mixer pics:::::
(more details sometime about this new frame -- battery power & not really very portable (as it was meant to be) - I tried out PCB front panel for this mixer ---> its a lot easier to work with than metal, but for a 5u tall panel its definitely not stong enough as it is, even with the bracing of the pots & pcbs. (..I'm still experimenting with 3u tall panels..))


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...front of a mixer...

Four input channels, four auxes, three returns. Plus an optical compressor & (actually quite meaty) power amp
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That's the buss bars..
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice mixer, Bug...

I used to build all my mixers, but nowadays, I'm buying Behringer. I couldn't buy the parts for anywhere near what new a Behringer product costs. The same goes for power amps, radios and television sets. Very Happy

I read a lot of those links about the suits Behringer is facing. One if from the FCC for not paying for certifying their products for RF suppression. I sympathize with them. It is a big cost to test stuff. It prohibits a lot of small businesses from selling in the USA. IMHO, the FCC should set standards and then prosecute people that make products that don't comply. Stomp boxes aren't the cause of RF interference anyway. A $1 million fine is pretty steep too. In cases like this, I agree with Ronald Regan, "get the government off the back of the people."

There is a member here that considered selling an analog signal conditioning product, but all this ridiculous regulation and others from UL and the EU helped him decide not to go into business.

Mackie and Roland are beefing that Behringer stole the appearance that they claim is a trademark. I'm sure Mackie has lost a lot of business to Behringer for selling nearly look and work alike products for much lower prices. Mackie says they use the same circuits and components, and infringed on their patents. If that is the case, then they will have a pretty straight-forward law suit. IMHO, it's a bit of a marketing blunder to make that claim though; it takes the air out from under the claim that Mackie uses better components and sounds better. Rolling Eyes

Stealing the looks seems less straight-forward to me. Maybe Mercedes Benz should sue Hyundai for making cars that resemble theirs.

BTW, one of those links says that the text of Mackie's suit against Behringer is posted on the Mackie web site http://www.mackie.com - but I can't find it. Maybe it contains the circuits and components in question. It would be interesting.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tom,

If you want a rack mounted mic/line mixer, as I used for my drum system, this one owuld be real nice!

EURORACK PRO RX1202FX
Ultra Low-Noise Design 12-Input Mic/Line Rack Mixer with Premium Mic Preamplifiers and 24-Bit Multi-FX Processor


I use this one also (just line in's):

EURORACK PRO RX1602
Professional Multi-Purpose 16-Input Ultra Low-Noise Line Mixer

Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Here's some mixer pics:::::


Bug,

Love all the bussing work !! Very nice .............. Really stream lines the wiring duty !!!

Very NICE Cool

Bill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I use the 1602 for my modular and I have to say it fits the bill perfectly. Cheap, good functionality given its 1 RU size and as stated, fairly quiet too.

I also have 3 old Tascam MM-100's that I use for the rest of my studio gear which are brilliant!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
use the 1602 for my modular and I have to say it fits the bill perfectly. Cheap, good functionality given its 1 RU size and as stated, fairly quiet too.


I agree !! I have each mono voice of my drum system routed in the LEFT (MONO) input of each channel of the mixer, now I can pan the drum sound anywhere in the stereo field. I have it also set so I can send each drum voice independently to a digital FX unit, then routed back to the mixer! This gives me great versatility when using my analog drums !!!

I have posted this picture before but her is the rig ........


Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
it takes the air out from under the claim that Mackie uses better components and sounds better. Rolling Eyes


Boy, what a blunder !!!!! So they were bullshitting us all along .... Very Happy Thats why I laugh at some of the claims the super fanatical Hi-Fi people make about their gear... It's a joke sometimes .... Like a little bit of electronic "noise" really matters in a LIVE situation ......... Very Happy I really like my UB1832-FX-PRO mixer console. I also use a Behringer 2442 Eurodesk thats works very well for me in the studio and use it to record all my external analog and digital synthesizers to the computer DAW when composing .....

Bill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I'm getting quite excited about the impending UD-1 board, intending to build four for my drum system (1 bass drum, 2 tom-toms and 1 woodblock/miscellaneous). I already have an ADV-Bass, ADV-Snare and Clangora, so this should make a pretty hot drum kit.


Glad to hear that Tom as the boards are only a little bit late but should start shipping them by the beginning of July ........... I just finished the technical guide this evening ........

Bill
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para



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thomas in no way was i attempting to say anything negative about your choice, not sure how it could have come off like that and cause other people to seemingly come to your rescue? to each his/her own. i just had a feeling that you were unaware of the history of the company and after reading your words about intellectual property rights i thought you might want to know, as i will not be buying anything from elby myself after reading what i have.

---


i'm pretty sure that my earlier post was taken in slightly unintended directions… but since they did… i have some things to get off my bony little chest


first let me say that i am in no way a gear snob ( but the home hi-fi crowd are morons for the most part - 480$ wooden knobs and shit?). i started out my, i guess 14 year recording history like most, dubbing back and forth with two tape decks. i'm cool with a 4 track found in a dumpster and a crappy little second hand radio shack mic. i love music and experimentation so much that i’m sure something good will come from it. also i personally make circuits that are intended to destroy things and make them sound terrible so keep that in the back of your head, BUT if i had a choice i would obviously use the things i've personally found to sound amazing or better then whatever else i have access to and in no way is behringer on that list, neither is anything mackie.

oh also the links i posted above are just from a tiny, iddy biddy, random little ultra fast google search used to quickly get my point across. i barely skimmed them. if you really want to research thee, i guessing, 100's of lawsuits brought against behringer enjoy yourself, but i have far better things to do with my time, and i could care less.


i agree that for the most part if you are looking for something new, ultra compact and cheap this stuff is hard to beat. but for the same price i would rather take something off of craigslist, ebay or the local “for sale” ad’s and enjoy the outstanding build quality and sound of older and far superior devices that behringer will never be able to stand up against. i have a little old yamaha m916 that no is not a perfect mixer, real pro’s think its pretty much crap and any serious recording engineer with any experience would never choose to use it or something behringer, or mackie have made with very very few exceptions from the old days, if they could afford something better. ( this stuff its NOT considered professional equipment by any stretch of the imagination – i don’t care if the word professional is printed on it and its usually a bad sign if it is ). but my little mixer has transformers on all the ins and outs, passive summing, and above all it sounds amazing! no cut rate mixer could ever compare. it makes my 01v sound like complete shit in comparison. i wish i knew what i know now back when i stupidly spent $1700 on it. because the m916 only cost me $125 ( though far more at the time). i’m sure there are literally hundreds of old mixers and amps out there that would floor you for the same price as this crap.



as for the sound of these devices. well it should be the consensus that your opinion shouldn't even mean anything to you until you have personally compared them to something that is actually made well. there is absolutely no contest. you can lie to yourself with "good enough" but if your spending all your time and money on these fantastic synths and buying burr brown’s and that’s, and cem’s and ssm’s, and hand matching parts under perfect thermal conditions and all this crap, and then you plug it into a behry with the lowest common denominator parts, which you yourself would never use in a synth design then you might as well be shoving those cable up your ### because your going to end up with the same results. you guys all know more about op amp design, and component quality, and everything else about electronics then my ( poorly ) self educated feeble mind probably ever will so i am completely baffled by this ????????? i bet if you opened up those behry's and took a look at what they are using you would realize that you personally would never use that in your own work, so why on earth would run your hundreds ( i’m guessing some of you thousands ) of dollars worth of handmade beauty's through them and think ahhh thats good enough ????


i can only say this because i have compared similar mixers, amps, cables mics, etc…. to stuff from neve, amek, teletronix, neumann, telefunken akg, etc.. doing my own shootouts with my own standards and intentions, using my own ears ( not sales ads, opps i mean “reviews” in bullshit mags ) and it was a very very enlightening process. i've used amazing equipment that i will never be able to afford but without a doubt i'm going to do the best i can with what i have access to and can afford in an effort to make sure i get the best results i can, instead of giving up and grabbing the cheapest thing. spend your money and time how you want but don't sit back and think you know it all if you have obviously no idea.


i say these things very very generally based on years of holding my tongue and they are in NOT directed at anyone in particular. i know that there are a lot more people that read and lurk around here then post, so i’m addressing this issue in general to anyone that cares to read this. i've come to know and respect everyone in this place so please don't take this as me talking down to anyone or anything like that, i feel quite the opposite, and am constantly humbled by you all. i hold you all in great esteem but i feel like this issue has been greatly overlooked, and if anyone has any doubts please do the research yourself and then i would love to hear what you have to say.


don’t settle or accept this quality level without first questioning it.




and without a doubt i’m sure someone will try and take offense to something i didn’t clearly explain ( i only have a midwest high school education - sorry ) and pointlessly snap back at me.


also none of this is about live mixing at all. it is a completely different field and has its own standards – or lack of. the only thing that really matters live to me is loudness and intelligibility, everything else is secondary.




--


Oh and nice mixer Bugs

--


best,
steven
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've got an MX1602 which suits me just fine. I've never done any recording which would sound better or worse (to me) going through a mixer which cost 2X, 4X, 8X more, and the money I would have spent could be so much more lovingly invested in an antique instrument, or a pile of components for building something fun.
I s'pose that's all that matters to me really. Getting the most fun for my buck. Buying an expensive mixer just doesn't make it into that equation.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Steven, I tend to agree with some of your statements. However, in my own words it goes like:

1. It´s´absolutely no need for making Behringer gear better than it actually is.

2. Behringer gear cannot be said to have a consistent quality. Some devices are actually quite useable in a project studio context, and many are not really that useable at all. It must be said that some of the line mixers are almost decent and pretty OK.

3. IMO, some of the Behringer line mixers are better than comparable low end stuff from say 20-30 years back. Same goes for the gates, compressors and rack DI devices.

4. Expensive high quality gear is much better which is no surprise.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
I s'pose that's all that matters to me really. Getting the most fun for my buck. Buying an expensive mixer just doesn't make it into that equation.


Excellent point!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

but Uncle Krunkus that is also my point. i guess its buried in there somewhere, i get long winded when i hold this crap in. i only spent 125$ on my mixer and its leaps and bounds better then any brand new low budget thing out there. its not about cost its about build quality. i even point out feeling stupid for spending so much on a new 01v when i could have just used an older analog. but i was just a kid at the time and i don't regret the functionality it yielded.

and i've heard there are some older direct clones of other very nice compressors that behry has made that are very nice boxes. but that is about it. they are about to release a "dim C" pedal though and i might actually grab one to play around with.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
they are about to release a "dim C" pedal though and i might actually grab one to play around with.


I'd sure be interested to hear your impression of it if you do!

Cheers,
Scott

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Production is overrated imo. It's the music which is the important thing (oh that old cliche again?! Laughing )

Behringer are an okay company I think. If I bought a Mackie, I would imagine that a) I wouldn't have change for something else and b) would keep my head because my wife wouldn't have bitten it off!.

My little Behringer mixer is 8 years old, and is still going strong. AFAIC, the Behringer stuff does the job, and that is all that matters Smile

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DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 4759
Location: Sydney, Australia
Audio files: 52
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
Quote:
they are about to release a "dim C" pedal though and i might actually grab one to play around with.

I'd sure be interested to hear your impression of it if you do!


Now there I would be prepared for disappointment. I tried to "fix" a friends Behringer chorus pedal 'cos it was "too noisy, and one output goes up and down in volume".
I opened it up and searched around for ages, I couldn't find anything wrong with it. Put it back together and the "fault" was still there. I ended up deciding that it was an undocumented feature. Laughing (BTW it had MN3XXX clones in it! Full size, everything else was SM)(The plastic case didn't inspire much confidence, but it was actually a lot tougher than it looked.)
I agree though about the compressors, I've also got an MDX 1400 AutoComPro, and it's great. Never missed a beat, and really shifted my home recordings out of the "sounds amateurish" basket.

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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OT

I want to mention a cute and useful little device, the SM Pro Di8.
http://www.smproaudio.com/DI8.htm

It´s 8-2 line mixer, but it´s also an 8-8 DI. It´s also stackable, so you can add units. It´s perfect when setting up a great monitoring mix of say an electronic drumkit or whatever and you can send the balanced output of the DI section into your multitrack/DAW.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

It is fairly transparent and I think it is a great problem solver.

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Thomas Henry



Joined: Mar 25, 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Southern Minnesota
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:
Thomas in no way was i attempting to say anything negative about your choice, not sure how it could have come off like that and cause other people to seemingly come to your rescue? to each his/her own. i just had a feeling that you were unaware of the history of the company and after reading your words about intellectual property rights i thought you might want to know, as i will not be buying anything from elby myself after reading what i have.


Well, you're right...I didn't know, as I mentioned. In fact, since I've spent most of my life building gear and not buying it, I am in general illiterate when it comes to commercial equipment. I am aware of Gibson, Fender and Peavey and that's about it.

But after reading the articles you pointed me toward, it does appear that in some of the instances there might be more to the story than meets the eye. The FCC thing in particular doesn't really prove Behringer are blackguards.

As for some of the other lawsuits, ever heard of Geos? It was the finest GUI op-system ever designed for PCs, way smaller, faster and more reliable than Windows. It also appeared earlier. So what happened? Microsoft threatened Berkely Software (the designer) with a suit, and the company went belly up since they didn't have the fancy, expensive lawyers that Microsoft did (even though they were in the right).

What I'm getting at is, is it clear that the companies that are suing Behringer are lily pure?

Anyway, thanks for the info. It was news to me.

By the way, I still use Geos; that's how I lay out all my schematics and front panels.

Thomas Henry
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goodrevdoc



Joined: Sep 11, 2006
Posts: 288
Location: Philadelphia, PA
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ha Ha! I used to use Geos on my old 486 machine years ago. I only switched to windoze cuz they just disappeared. Nice(or not so nice, really) to know what bacame of it.
-justin
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