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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Some of my thoughts
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bernat



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
keep in mind this is a community and the point of this forum is to form connections and be welcoming.


I don't think anybody has been swearing or typing in caps. Are we seriously supposed to stick to the "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all" school?

Quote:
2-1/2. example: my brother got an erector set for hannukah one year. i got iridescent sweaters. i still haven't gotten over my jealousy, as i never got an erector set despite trying to steal his every day for about 5 years. the uncle who gave us these things might as well have handed us cards, one for my brother saying "we value your ingenuety" and one for me saying "we value your shiny-ness".


Not to diminish your example of subtle gender discrimination, but I could share some stories of outright aggression toward women in the workplace and in relationships from me and my mother.

Quote:
5. i will, however, heartily agree with those who find that midi underwear and pretty much everything in the "abstractions" thread falls outside the category of "things that directly address the role of women in electro".


i meant the midi vagina as a lame half-joke.
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bernat



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
i'll say it again, if you want to be involved, get involved. this subforum, although enlightend in concept, is silly if women come here to talk about how they are excluded from a community that already includes them. the forums are open, use them. if you merely want the right to be included, but don't want to include yourself, then i think this is all silly.


I've said this before, and if you don't mind, I'll reiterate it as well.

This is how I want to be involved right now. This subforum, right here, talking about women's issues in electro. I'm not commanding you to sell all of your equipment and donate your money to Women in Engineering scholarships (although you're welcome to), so you don't have the right to tell me how to spend my time.

Thanks for the banter. (seriously! although it's much easier to have these debates in person). "Hope you don't hate me with an irrational passion."
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
i suggest we change the name of this forum from "women in electro-music" to "race/class/gender in electro-music".


We can do that - you are the moderator so I'll follow your suggestion. How about Diversity in electro-music?

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deknow



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

I've said this before, and if you don't mind, I'll reiterate it as well.

This is how I want to be involved right now. This subforum, right here, talking about women's issues in electro.


um....ok...but have you really been doing that? most of what you've been talking about is global wealth distribution...with the occasional shout out to single mothers.

and with all due respect, i'm not sure how relavant such a position is to anything other than your own academic satisfaction. you want to discuss why women aren't involved in em (i'm not sure if you are talking about the forum, the event, or electronic music in general), yet you don't care to actually participate yourself.

if you think women should be involved, then recruit them. encourage them to join the forum, attend em08, apply to present a talk or a concert....i'm sure howard would be more than happy to help you webcast a woman's only electronic music performance (this can be in your living room) there are absolutely no barriers for women here that they don't impose on themselves, and until you can give even one example, i'm not sure what your criticism is.

deknow
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deknow



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Not to diminish your example of subtle gender discrimination, but I could share some stories of outright aggression toward women in the workplace and in relationships from me and my mother.


so men don't have to worry about such things? men are only agressive to women? without exaggerating, i've been tied up with phone wires on a kitchen floor with a gun in my mouth in a home invasion....crackheads looking for drugs. they did talk about fucking us before they left, but decided they had been there too long already. you think because i'm male this wasn't threatining, intimidating, and terrifying? you would be wrong.

i can also talk about being taken advantage of sexually by a woman while pretty drunk....i'd be in jail if i did what she did....and no, i'm not making this up, and remember that i only weigh about 125lbs...that doesn't make me "overpoweringly powerful", especially when the woman in question weighed over 200lbs (i'm not making fat jokes at all).

everyone has trauma...but if you are going to be an adult and be responsible for yourself, you have to figure out a way to get over such things (either by onesself or with help). i've discussed at least one forum members depression with him (after having bitter bickering), and i'm sure there are more. some people are short, some are socially awkward, some stutter, some just don't fit in....but here online, nobody really cares about such things if one wants to discuss any of the issues here...but this particular discussion makes me think of "the life of brian"...and in typical male online fashon, i'm going to quote (or paraphrase) motny python:

(all men sitting at the coloseum)
"i want to have a baby"
"but you don't have a uterus"
"well, i want the right to have a baby"

here you are (both you and bernat)...as women, you want the right to be part of the forum and community...so you have it, with no questions, and no restrictions, you are nothing but welcome (and that is not some new policy)...yet it seems like you only want to complain that you don't feel welcome. imho, until you at least try to participate in other parts of the forum and site, then your complaints are out of ignorance, of assumptions of how you will be treated, or fear.

deknow
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bbinkovitz



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
bbinkovitz wrote:
i suggest we change the name of this forum from "women in electro-music" to "race/class/gender in electro-music".


We can do that - you are the moderator so I'll follow your suggestion. How about Diversity in electro-music?


yeah that is even better. that would get rid of the impression that this forum is here to quarantine the women away from the rest of the forum.
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bbinkovitz



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
you are nothing but welcome (and that is not some new policy)...yet it seems like you only want to complain that you don't feel welcome. imho, until you at least try to participate in other parts of the forum and site, then your complaints are out of ignorance, of assumptions of how you will be treated, or fear.


i'm really sad that we're percieved this way. until reading this post, i did feel "nothing but welcome". however, having my desire to reach out to other female musicians, and start an honest dialogue about this seemingly incongruous disparity, denigrated as "only wanting to complain" hurts.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
mosc wrote:
bbinkovitz wrote:
i suggest we change the name of this forum from "women in electro-music" to "race/class/gender in electro-music".


We can do that - you are the moderator so I'll follow your suggestion. How about Diversity in electro-music?


yeah that is even better. that would get rid of the impression that this forum is here to quarantine the women away from the rest of the forum.


I think that's a good idea.

To further get back to the present questions about women and EM (as a site), one aspect about our forum that we haven't mentioned at all is that everybody, regardless of gender (or race, income or....) can pick a very neutral login name and avatar and participate fully. In fact; we don't know at all how many people are already doing so at all.

To me it sounds like a good idea to focus on problems we are in a good position to solve. We have some exelent means to adress matters as they relate to this site, we have some more limited but very valuable and worthwhile means of affecting how people relate to making music and fellow musicians and our means of changing society as a whole are very small. I'd say it would be a good idea to pick our battles.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
deknow wrote:
you are nothing but welcome (and that is not some new policy)...yet it seems like you only want to complain that you don't feel welcome. imho, until you at least try to participate in other parts of the forum and site, then your complaints are out of ignorance, of assumptions of how you will be treated, or fear.


i'm really sad that we're percieved this way. until reading this post, i did feel "nothing but welcome". however, having my desire to reach out to other female musicians, and start an honest dialogue about this seemingly incongruous disparity, denigrated as "only wanting to complain" hurts.


LOL!!

You know when you've been Deknow'ed!!!

I think if you start a forum named "Women in electro-music" then you are really asking for trouble because all those who want a fight will rise to the bait. I imagine that there are plently of women on the forum that we don't even know exsist because they don't put their necks out to say 'hey I'm a woman"- and to be fair no one really gives a fart anyway.

OTOH, these sort of places ARE very male dominated (I think, and my observation)- I would also imagine that many gay men are also attracted to these forums- because its a very male-like place. My wife who is very involved in electronic music (btw), would never post here because she just ain't interested- prefferring places like Spiked.org (check it out- good Marxist stuff).However she is also keen to point out the 'division of labour' that definately exists because one thing that IS very male, is sitting round chatting on forums about these kind of issues while most women are looking after the kids, doing the washing up or making sure that someone is there to get the next meal in, and that is very true- I get bollocked a lot for spending too much time gassing about pretty much nothing at all!!!!

To be honest, I reckon this forum should be closed and we all just get on with working the other forums- and who gives a **** about gender and who's what and where? Not me (or Rosie).

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:

I don't think anybody has been swearing or typing in caps. Are we seriously supposed to stick to the "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all" school?


No, but it would be nice to try to stick to the "please don't derail topics that try to identify speciffic issues and offer a starting point towards speciffic solutions by only talking about vaguely defined issues that seem to have no solutions within our reach at all" school.

Quote:
i meant the midi vagina as a lame half-joke.


I think it's funny and that you should make one. We have sections on DIY electronics and on programing, we also have several members with a active interest and experience in interface design. All of those are very welcoming to beginners, odd experiments and humorous (no pun intended) instruments and none of them seem particularly sexist to me. There is absolutely nothing keeping you from making one.

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deknow



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

please...i'm not trying to be hurtful. but if you are trying to reach out to other female musicians, what are you doing posting here?...there just aren't that many currently on e-m...or at least not many that care to discuss this topic.

but the thing that i find so frustrating is that you are fighting for the right to do exactly what you are currently able to do, but don't care to. what seems obvious to me, is that if you did want to be talking about electronic music making (or electronic video making), or sharing your art, you would simply be doing so, and you would not be thinking that gender was an issue. as of yet, i don't think i've read a single example of what is keeping women out of the forums.

how did i end up at the first electro-music? i saw in the paper that howard was playing in town, i'd been on the forum, just the nord modular section, and recognized his name (how many "howard moscovitz" electronic musicians can there be). i told him what i was doing with the flute, and he said, "oh, you should give a talk at electro-music". ramona came with me, but we didn't perform that year, but i did give the talk, and did some recordings with new friends. the next year, ramona and i performed, and brought dr t along. my point is if you want more women to be at the event, you have to recruit them. i was recruited, i recruited ramona, and we recruited dr t....... as all of this is volunteer work, if you see something you want done, then go do it...sending a few emails to female artists you like and/or friends isn't a big deal.

again, i'm not trying to trivialize your experience...your experience is yours. i just don't think that what you are doing here so far is very productive towards your stated goal.

Quote:
however, having my desire to reach out to other female musicians, and start an honest dialogue about this seemingly incongruous disparity, denigrated as "only wanting to complain" hurts.


i don't know how else to see it. you don't want to participate in the forums, you want to complain that there are too few women in them. i agree this is a problem, and i'd love to see more women involved in the event and in the forum, but the way to fix it is to join the discussions, not to find fault in them because you don't want to, but you think other women should.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
who gives a **** about gender and who's what and where?


Well, I give a **** about gender, but can't spare much more.

(sorry, had to do it)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
v-un-v wrote:
who gives a **** about gender and who's what and where?


Well, I give a **** about gender, but can't spare much more.

(sorry, had to do it)


Laughing Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:16 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
you don't want to participate in the forums, you want to complain that there are too few women in them.


deknow, please observe that "bbinkovitz" and "bernat" are two distinct humans --- you seem to be applying bernat's statement (about wanting to only participate on this subforum right now) to bbinkovitz (who is currently participating in other sections of the electro-music forum, talking about toy-instruments and electric guitars and stuff).
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deknow



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
deknow, please observe that "bbinkovitz" and "bernat" are two distinct humans --- you seem to be applying bernat's statement (about wanting to only participate on this subforum right now) to bbinkovitz (who is currently participating in other sections of the electro-music forum, talking about toy-instruments and electric guitars and stuff).

Smile yes, i know they are two differant people, and i don't think i'm confusing them. it's worth noting that almost all of the posts you are referring to were made yesterday and today only. sorry, i'm not that up to date. i'm glad she's posting...she must have decided to take my advice ROFL

bbinkovitz (earlier in this thread)
Quote:
i have posted in a few of the forums besides this one, but find it more productive to observe and experiment than to charge into a conversation and ask for a quick explanation of everything ever.


bernat (also earlier in this thread)
Quote:
This is how I want to be involved right now. This subforum, right here, talking about women's issues in electro.
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smokris



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
Smile yes, i know they are two differant people, and i don't think i'm confusing them. it's worth noting that almost all of the posts you are referring to were made yesterday and today only. sorry, i'm not that up to date. i'm glad she's posting...she must have decided to take my advice


ok, cool. yes, this is kinda the beginning. i'm going to try to be more active in the em forums, too. (spurred on by howard's insidious jab during the keynote speech at em2007.)

deknow wrote:
but the thing that i find so frustrating is that you are fighting for the right to do exactly what you are currently able to do, but don't care to.


i think (one of) the point(s) of this subforum is to fight for other people --- those who are perceived to not have the "right" at present to participate in full capacity.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
i think (one of) the point(s) of this subforum is to fight for other people --- those who are perceived to not have the "right" at present to participate in full capacity.


....yet, i haven't seen an example of one individual or group that falls into that cataglory. who doesn't have the right? i read the forum for months before joining...remaining completely annonomus (learning g2 stuff), and joined when i felt i needed to ask a question...i don't know how we can really hope to help empower people who can't read an online forum, and i don't know how any group or individual is excluded.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

just to set the record straight, i posted in several forums and read many more before this one even formed. if i were not interested in the messageboard, why on earth would i have suggested this forum and volunteered to mod, and advertised it on the electro for girls facebook group? i've participated actively (video mixing, vocal performance, choreography, lyrics writing, rehearsal planning, equipment setup, and more) in the last two years' electro events in cheltenham. i've also gone to electronic music events while going to school at oberlin, such as the timara (technology in music and related arts) alumni concert events where i talked to amy x neuburg after her set.

i don't see this forum as a place to complain; i see it as a beacon and meeting place for women to see their goals supported and reinforced, and to find female co-conspirators and role models (see my post about my sister in the welcome thread).
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
just to set the record straight, i posted in several forums and read many more before this one even formed. if i were not interested in the messageboard, why on earth would i have suggested this forum and volunteered to mod, and advertised it on the electro for girls facebook group?


mmm, you posted about 10 posts in the "feedback" and "photo" forums regarding the event before the women in em forum was started...so yes, technically, you did post, but only on the topic of the event. this is quite a differant thing than what you have been talking about.

i have no doubt that you are interested (and it looks like you have been participating in the last few days), but if you are going to "set the record straight", you should do so in a way that is less misleading than the above.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i am slowly getting the impression that i am being told to leave.

maybe it was really naive of me to want to start this forum, which is sad.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
i am slowly getting the impression that i am being told to leave.

maybe it was really naive of me to want to start this forum, which is sad.


Please don´t leave. I´ll issue some virtual superglue if the need arises. Please stick around.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
maybe it was really naive of me to want to start this forum, which is sad.


It was naive maybe, but I think it's valuable for this forum. Besides, what's wrong with being naive anyway? For me it's pretty much a synonym for being open minded and and being innovative, we want that here, I want that here I mean.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

no one is asking (or wishing you) to leave. personally, i'm glad that you are becoming involved in the forums...as i think you will have a much more informed perspective on your stated goals by doing so.

if you are going to make claims on a discussion list however, expect them to be challenged....especially if they are demonstrably inaccurate.

i dunno,many here (including myself) have given you, i think, several good constructive ideas to accomplish what you say you are trying to accomplish....email women artists you know and/or admire and invite them here (and/or to next year's event), work to become the role model you want to see here, ask questions, use a sex-neutral avatar/name, don't let others tell you what your music should be....etc.

if you experience problems dealing with this forum for reasons that you think are gender related, then that's a good thing to talk about...but you have to participate first. i'd make a pretty substantial bet that you will not be berated or put down for contributing and/or asking questions on any of the forums here simply for being a woman. to try and change things without first participating is putting the cart before the horse. from here, you seem to be afraid of what will happen if you do participate, rather than reacting to what actually happens. this isn't a very productive way to improve anything (imho).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
i am slowly getting the impression that i am being told to leave.

maybe it was really naive of me to want to start this forum, which is sad.


If you look closely, you'll see that your "opposition" consists of barely a couple of posters. I applaud this forum and read it with interest, even if I don't feel I have anything to contribute. Once all this bickering is done with, I'm sure there will be lots of interesting threads here.

I personally have the opinion that, given the injustice against women that has been the rule so far, it wouldn't be wrong to actively tip the scales over in favour of women for a while and see what happens. But then again, I'm a commie bastard.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
If you look closely, you'll see that your "opposition" consists of barely a couple of posters. I applaud this forum and read it with interest, even if I don't feel I have anything to contribute. Once all this bickering is done with, I'm sure there will be lots of interesting threads here.


I second this. Don't let a couple of abrasive voices scare you off.

James

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