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That's not a waveshaper ...
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Peter Grenader



Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 14
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I found my prototype 3914 sequencer engine. I used PNP's at the 3914's outs to convert to voltage and increase the drive of each stage. Here's snap:

http://www.ear-group.net/3914sequencerengine.jpg

I made this sometime around the summer of 2002. In the upper right corner the stage outs go to a header connector underneath which connected to the stage pots and gate output drivers.

You can do this very same thing using an ADC and a single 4516. Digital outs of the first four bits of the converter into the preset inputs of the counter. cleaner, less parts, less power, etc. You can add a latch in between the two to make it step with the incoming clock and you can disable the latch to make it run in real time, without the need of a clock into the sequencer (hint: SYNC and ASYNC input sensitivity setting of the analog Milton sequencer)
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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peter Grenader wrote:
We're using a microproccessor, we don't have to go into the details of replicating comparator gates like that. We simply read the data coming from an eight input serial ADC and assign commands to a series of hex numbers coming from the converter. This way we can change the input sensitivity to anything we wish, we're not limited to a comparator ladder's scaling. The micro responds by executing functions when numbers are present at the VC Input, like go to stage number X at hex number Y, and so on. Much easier.


Yes, I'm formulating my design similarly, a multiplier scales the input value by the modulation amount, then 4 bits will be used to drive a selector that presents either a one or a zero which becomes the pulse value. No comparators required.

How are you changing input sensitivity (and I assume this is so that you can apply modulation)? In an FPGA, I probably have to use a multiplier unless there's a slick logic way to do it without. In my case, I will be generating my input (sawtooth) from within the FPGA. This will be added as an additional waveform selection to a synth design I already have.
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Peter Grenader



Joined: Jan 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You change the input sensitivity by asking the processor to respond to larger to smaller set of numbers coming form the ADC, shifting the the scaling units.
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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peter Grenader wrote:
You change the input sensitivity by asking the processor to respond to larger to smaller set of numbers coming form the ADC, shifting the the scaling units.


So you are scaling by shifting a variable amount?
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Peter Grenader



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not talking about attenuating the VC Input, I'm talknig about shifting the range of numbers the processor responds to. The input remains the same. The ADC scaling remains the same, You simply shift the set of numbers the processor responds to up or down.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: That's not a waveshaper ...
Subject description: one possible mod
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Tim Servo wrote:
Hey Ian,

How about adding another 3914 (run in Bar mode) and a set of analog switches to replace the mechanical switches and allow voltage control of switch 1 to 5 closure?

Tim (just thinking out loud) Servo


What a splendid idea Very Happy

I must have missed this one when I was on holiday. Please will you do another re-run Ian? Wink

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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ScottG wrote:
Given that I will have to invent a digital implementation of the LM3914, I should be able to increase the number of bars. The whole scheme should be fairly simple to implement digitally, just a bunch of comparators and a big OR gate.

In the sound clip, you were just modulating via the shape input?

Scott --

Yes, all modulation from the "shape" control. Lots of variety there when combined with the different switch combinations.

With a digital version you could do all kinds of interesting stuff. I don't even know where to start thinking about it! But running two shapers in parallel, either for dynamic mixing or for stereo effects would be a good place to start. I don't know about increasing the number of pulses. Five is really pretty edgy and phasey. Too many, and things could start to mud out.

But I know you will come up with something really good!

Very Happy

Ian
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: That's not a waveshaper ...
Subject description: one possible mod
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Tim Servo wrote:
How about adding another 3914 (run in Bar mode) and a set of analog switches to replace the mechanical switches and allow voltage control of switch 1 to 5 closure?


Sure! Or just hang ten VCA's off the outputs for complete control of everything. But play with the simple setup first. There's a lot of possibilities there.

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow
this looks really cool. another circuit of yours i need to build!
do you have pcbs left for ANY of your projects? if so i would love to buy some.

(i know you are out of the chaos ones but maybe there are some other pcbs?)

thanks

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
do you have pcbs left for ANY of your projects?


Sorry, no. It takes a lot of time and effort to sell/ship boards. Since very few get used, it's just not worth my time. I'll think about this again in the Spring, if it looks like the ones I already sold are being used, but this doesn't seem likely. Some folks built them up right away, but since then I haven't heard about any being used. There is one guy who boasts of having boards and parts for 162 modules, but he hasn't built one single thing! I had to go to a lot of special trouble to get him the ones he ordered from me.

It's really quite easy to build on protoboard, so I don't think I'm really depriving anyone of anything by not selling more boards.

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok cool
i just figured id check.

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peter Grenader wrote:
We're using a microproccessor, we don't have to go into the details of replicating comparator gates like that. We simply read the data coming from an eight input serial ADC and assign commands to a series of hex numbers coming from the converter. This way we can change the input sensitivity to anything we wish, we're not limited to a comparator ladder's scaling. The micro responds by executing functions when numbers are present at the VC Input, like go to stage number X at hex number Y, and so on. Much easier.


Hi Peter --

I'm glad to see you looking at this project!

I'm having trouble following what you are proposing. In the analog circuit there are two CV signals -- one to set the base pulse train and one to modulate it. So when you say "an eight input serial ADC" or "the ADC" what exactly are you talking about?

Thanks for any clarification or further details you can give.

Very Happy

Ian
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Danno Gee Ray



Joined: Sep 25, 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ian,

In light of your stated decision not to offer boards for sale anymore, would you by chance be able to post PCB layouts for any of your boards for the Ferric Cloride crew to make their own?

I have in my possession one of your Chaos boards, a Jerkster, and a TGSH. I have not built them yet (as well as many others), as I'm still getting my room in the house together for my workshop. I plan to start building soon. With that in mind, I'd love to be able to include a 5 Pulser in the mix, and a PCB would make that easier. If none will be offered for sale, then at least the option of burning my own would be helpful.

Thanks,
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Danno Gee Ray wrote:
In light of your stated decision not to offer boards for sale anymore, would you by chance be able to post PCB layouts for any of your boards for the Ferric Cloride crew to make their own?

I have in my possession one of your Chaos boards, a Jerkster, and a TGSH. I have not built them yet (as well as many others), as I'm still getting my room in the house together for my workshop. I plan to start building soon. With that in mind, I'd love to be able to include a 5 Pulser in the mix, and a PCB would make that easier. If none will be offered for sale, then at least the option of burning my own would be helpful.


Well, as I said, I may do more runs in the future, if it looks like there is sincere interest in using them. Not to single you out in particular, but everyone has a story like yours. Yet ... so far nobody has finished their workroom, caught up on their backlog, married their girlfriend, had their baby, etc. Very Happy

As far as the FeCl tribe goes, my layouts have fairly narrow traces and really small plated thru holes. If you are sure you can handle the alignment and drilling, then I might consider that option. But my freebee software doesn't have a printout option, so it would be a bit of work for me to do that.

But again, these circuits can be built quickly on perfboard by anyonje who is seriously interested. And there *is* a stripboard version of the 5Pulser up at my website.

Very Happy

Ian
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Danno Gee Ray



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok just thought I'd ask.
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i wish you had stripboard layouts up for the chaos circuits!!
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
i wish you had stripboard layouts up for the chaos circuits!!


You can pretty easily learn to do them yourself.

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes but first you must be good at reading schematics....i have done plenty of schematic to perfboard layouts BUT for some reason the more complex a circuit gets, the more i mess it up on perfboard (and stripboard is similar for me in this respect)

this is why lately i have been doing more pcbs and etching.

the chaos circuit have intimidated me. i want to get them working though so i will just have to do them on perf or stripboard.

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fluxmonkey



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
loss1234 wrote:
do you have pcbs left for ANY of your projects?


Sorry, no. It takes a lot of time and effort to sell/ship boards. Since very few get used, it's just not worth my time. I'll think about this again in the Spring, if it looks like the ones I already sold are being used, but this doesn't seem likely. Some folks built them up right away, but since then I haven't heard about any being used. There is one guy who boasts of having boards and parts for 162 modules, but he hasn't built one single thing! I had to go to a lot of special trouble to get him the ones he ordered from me.

It's really quite easy to build on protoboard, so I don't think I'm really depriving anyone of anything by not selling more boards.

Ian


i've built both of my chaos/jerkster boards and use them often and happily. i'm very very appreciative of your innovative work and generosity.

i try to play out more than i solder, and i solder as much as i can, so things like recording samples or posting pics often just don't get done... but that doesn't mean that your projects are just being hoarded away like rare postage stamps. i really appreciate the PCBs when you're up to it... really helps maximize the output of my limited soldering time. you're right that much can be breadboarded... but it takes me about twice as long and a lower success rate; i'd never have gotten as far as I have w/out bootstrap help from folks like you, ken stone, ray wilson, and all the wizards here at electromusic.

hope someday i'll have the chops to contribute something original to the sdiy community, but in the meanwhile a public thanks to you, Ian, and all the other generous souls here.

sincerely,
bbob
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
i wish you had stripboard layouts up for the chaos circuits!!

Then why not do one yourself and put it up? Something to do while you are waiting for your power supply. Very Happy
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbob wrote:
i've built both of my chaos/jerkster boards and use them often and happily.

Right! I already had you marked down as one of the people who has used the boards. I'm especially glad to hear you can use them in your performances. Maybe someday post a demo or two?

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:21 pm    Post subject: if i made a layout...chaos Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fritz,if i made a layout then we'd have a bunch of people working off of a messed up design and that would be real chaos Smile !!!!

seriously i dont know if am good enough at any of this yet to make my own layouts yet. i seem to have a hard enough time getting OTHER Peoples layout to work! i have had cases where i had to perfboard something 3 or even 4 times before i got it to work (and that was working off of a known working schematic) if its something with one chip or 2 at most, i do pretty well, but as the complexity rises, i start making mistakes, and most of this comes down to not quite being able to follow a schematics structure too well (how a wire should connect)

for example, i make mistakes like having each pot connect back to the board, instead of wiring their grounds together, and i think that i still have trouble sometime grasping how signals flow. The serial/parralell dichotomy gets me confused sometimes, like if a look at a schematic and see 4 things connected to one pin, i have to really think about if they are connecting in serial or in parallel.


( i have to really spend time looking at the lines on a schematic to figure out what does and DOES NOT connect to each other)

maybe some of this gets easier in time but for now, i dont think i want to anger people by posting a broken stripboard layout. BUT I PROMISE that AS SOON AS I AM ABLE i will start contributing things like that.


thanks

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: if i made a layout...chaos Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
( i have to really spend time looking at the lines on a schematic to figure out what does and DOES NOT connect to each other)

I have to say that I find that a very discomforting statement. All the pins and components that that are connected by lines on the diagram are connected by wires on the circuit. Could you help us understand your difficulty by explaining exactly what you don't understand about that? We would all like to help you along, but ...

Thanks.

Ian
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For me Loss - the inner imagination of my brain GRADUALLY accepted how things were connected together. This was through the 80's before I was grasping with firmer understanding.
Through the 90's it SLOWLY grew and I'd have to review things less and less for them to be implanted in my memory / understanding.
Through all of that time, it DOES become 2nd nature to naturally understand where something is going without checking yourself again.

It can NOT be rushed though. It can only be learned through patience and practice.

Nowadays (since starting building again in June 2005 after a 4 year break) am I working on teaching myself all the bits of theory that I hadn't before.

Prolly again'll take years to comprehend. Learning backwards, as I learned the general ops of opamps before I did trannies and diodes. Sad
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prophei



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

actually, i have had some great fun with the TGTSH board.... sorry for the lack of samples. i have gotten so into building all these little projects that my musical experiments with them seem much smaller in scope than what i would prefer to post. i need to change that!
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