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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Black/hispanic gay house music
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dewdrop_world



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Would be nice to see some more discussion here of black and Hispanic gay house music, and also participation by the artists.

Note, I don't mean crappy 4x4 remixes of pop songs, the kind of pap they play at circuit parties. I'm talking about the kind of stuff that probably doesn't make it very far outside black gay clubs in New York and Chicago. 4x4, yes, often lo fi, bass heavy, often with influences from gospel and funk. This is music that is not so much about compositional wizardry -- it seems to me the best of the genre (or maybe the subset of the music I like the best) turns the frustrations of being multiple minorities into dance floor liberation, dancing for release and escape.

I was just listening today to a mixtape I got in 1995, and damn! It still works. Over 11 years later and I still get gooseflesh in a couple of places because the sheer sound is lift-you-out-of-your-seat unreal.

I can think of a couple of reasons why it would be very hard to bring these folks here, though.

-- This forum tends to privilege values like innovation and technical sophistication, which I tend to associate with European musical cultures. If you're listening to underground gay house, you might not hear anything "new." Would we know how to talk about it?

-- Do the people who produce and consume this music care about talking about it? Quite possibly not. (Why, for instance, do the British offshoots of acid house have an immense Internet presence while gay house is nowhere near so pervasive online?)

Well, no forum can be all things to all people. If we tried to be, this place probably would not be as attractive to the people who visit here regularly. But, I'm sure we miss out on some non-white voices because they might come here and see a buncha white folks talking like stuck-up academic white folks. afro

But I-yam what I-yam!

James

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
I can think of a couple of reasons why it would be very hard to bring these folks here, though.


The next best thing would maybe be to point/link us to a place where we could (try to) share your shivers Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Okay, here is my favorite segment from the aforementioned mixtape. It's Morel Grooves' "Officer, where's your brother?" Just a clip... also, I put it on my web site because I don't think it's public domain or creative commons (meaning that if someone asks me in scary legalese to take it down, I will do so).

http://www.dewdrop-world.net/audio/officer.mp3

When he drops in the kick at 31 seconds in this clip, beautiful.

But what I really like is how the spoken words paint a picture, without narrative, of an element of non-guppie (i.e., underprivileged) urban gay life. My reading is of a Hispanic drag queen getting harassed by the cops. You have the cops ("officer!"), the queen taunting back ("where's your brother?"), embarrassed asides ("hi girls!", "the kids are gonna talk about this..."), and finally the flippant comment "but I'm feeling a song" -- which anyone in the life will recognize as defiance, as if to say "you may be kicking my ass to the curb but I'm going to go down singing." It's another manifestation of taking all the social pressures and releasing them through creative expression (watch Jennie Livingston's important documentary Paris is Burning, for more on that).

And like a lot of gay expression, if you're not familiar with the culture, you might feel like the spoken clips are random or disconnected. For at least a century gays have had ways of speaking that make perfect sense to us but are designed to confuse straights Razz -- a necessary protective mechanism in times when you could be arrested for being openly gay, not so commonly used now.

All of which makes for an awfully dense minute of music before the main beat comes in. This bit still gets me every time.

James

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
For at least a century gays have had ways of speaking that make perfect sense to us but are designed to confuse straights Razz -- a necessary protective mechanism in times when you could be arrested for being openly gay, not so commonly used now.


like the word "gay" itself!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
All of which makes for an awfully dense minute of music before the main beat comes in. This bit still gets me every time.


The explanations and context you gave can make me understand it a bit Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
"Officer, where's your brother?"


I seem to remember that one was quite big in Europe back in the days of House/ Rave, I instantly recognised it, so did my GF.

Maybe not in the US but in Europe you can actually hear things in this vein fairly easily (and not just in gay clubs either)and it was hugely influential. Maybe now moreso more then a few years ago, now that it's more important for "House-purists" to set themselves apart from the more mainstream "dance" and "trance" genres that definately lack the more sexualy ambiguous lower (and definately more powerfull) female vocals typical of older (and more gay) house tracks.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

How much does Black/hispanic gay house music differ from non-Black/hispanic gay house music ?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yorky wrote:
How much does Black/hispanic gay house music differ from non-Black/hispanic gay house music ?


Probably significantly different in its semantic implications and those must be considered an important part of the aesthetic value/content of those works. Yea I know, it puts a straight man on the outside. Not a comfortable position, what? I'd guess that's also part of its artistic value. BWDIK

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yorky wrote:
How much does Black/hispanic gay house music differ from non-Black/hispanic gay house music ?


My feeling is that they are quite different. I think the styles diverged pretty sharply in the late 80's/early 90's, with white producers going in the direction of ACIIIEEEEED and black/Hispanic producers taking it in the direction of Chicago deep house and NY garage.

Stereotypically the white stuff is more technologically utopian (or dystopian) while the black and Hispanic stuff is a lot earthier, sexier. Black house often has a strong gospel influence, especially in harmony -- which I love love love love -- but I almost never hear that influence in whiter styles.

(Then there's Detroit techno, which blows my description to smithereens by being futuristic in theme but dominated by black producers.)

A woefully incomplete attempt here, but maybe it's a good start.

James

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmmm, there is plenty of black gay acid but it indeed lacks the gospel influences. I'd describe it as more "bear" then "queer" (though neither word totally covers what I mean)

If stuff like "where's your child"....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8854499551825947195&

....and I've lost control....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7741141267489692026

...are white&straight then I'm giving up on such classifications.

Oh, wait....

European rave, BTW, had a lot of gospel influenced piano lines and that was nearly all white and the scene was mostly straight though I think that the style survived longest in gay clubs.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks guys

now I'd better get back to America's Top Model

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I'd describe it as more "bear" then "queer"

Sorry been outa the loop, whats "bear" ?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A sub-culture amongst homosexual men that frowns on effeminate manners, think big, hairy (often bearded) men in "outdoor-style" clothes. I think some specialised venues even have a door policy that forbids deodorant/ aftershave.

This Wikipedia write-up looks ok to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_community

I had this friend who was into that scene, he made it all sound quite sensible and no-nonsense which I liked about it. "No nonsense" is quite hard to come by in hetro relationships, sadly.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
"No nonsense" is quite hard to come by in hetro relationships, sadly.


What do you mean by that?

A close friend of mine who is also into 'bears' says that most of the time he can never find a decent relationship because most (well all in fact- all the ones he's met) bears aren't interested in commitment. Perhaps that's the English breed?? Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mainly clarity. I'm a big fan of clarity, at least for serious stuff.

Personally I think it's great if people don't want commitment, as long as they are clear about at it, as well as the other way around (desiring commitment is also cool with me!). To illustrate, it would suck if your partner in a one-night-stand would assume the situation to be the start of a long-term monogamous romantic deal, as well as the other way around, to take a extreme case.

In the past years my experience has been that girls often are quite bad at being straight (no pun intended) and clear about what it is that they want and that once clarity arrives that often irreparably changes the situation. In my subjective experience that's in stark contrast to gay men where you can politely decline to get sexual, with no harm done.

Before James jumps in to repeat what he said in the Mac conversation; that I might've been doing something wrong, here that might well be true, but still. I've always been impressed by the amount of clear communication in gay clubs, especially in contrast to straight bars that may have the same amount of non-committal hookups but none of the clarity.

Maybe it's just me but to me it's a huge turn-off if some girl comes up to me to start rambling about random stuff, I don't get this in-between vagueness at all, why not talk about some subject of substance or simply announce one is "in the mood"? Then it takes a female friend to point out to me the "random nonsense" I just feigned some pressing matter for was in fact a come-on or that the predatory stares from across the room weren't a sign that I end up in a venue where I'm not welcome. I find it hard to enjoy music with somebody blabbering about some trivial matter or with predatory stares from all sides.

Fortunately these days I'm very happy in my (straight) relationship which took off with some very clear negotiations about what we both wanted (being monogamous and having enough time to ourselves, in case you are interested) so that's nice. I'd also like to mention that I know plenty of girls that will be extremely clear about what they want, it's just that in my experience (and perception) those are a delightful if small minority.

I'm not really qualified to talk about what "the average bear" wants but I can say I do know that committed long term relationships do exist in that scene, maybe your friend just had bad luck so far.

All of this was meant to share my own experiences and perceptions, to be perfectly clear; I know very well that people of all sexes and preferences are very diverse and generalisations are just that.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
maybe your friend just had bad luck so far.


He does have 'high standards' Laughing

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sure, it's well known that lowering your standards makes you more likely to "get lucky" :¬)

It could also be that your friend wants a long-term commitment but somehow feel attracted to the behaviour and manners of people who don't? That would explain the situation.

While talking gay hookups on a music forum, I feel forced to mention that the movie "Cruising" has one of my favourite soundtracks of all time, non electronic though.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Before James jumps in to repeat what he said in the Mac conversation; that I might've been doing something wrong, here that might well be true, but still. I've always been impressed by the amount of clear communication in gay clubs, especially in contrast to straight bars that may have the same amount of non-committal hookups but none of the clarity.


No, I wouldn't say anything of the kind here.

It's always harder for intellectually-awake people to find like-minded people (than it is for the average drone). To be reminded of that, all I need to do is spend a few minutes in a cafe or walking in the mall, and eavesdrop on the ordinary and tiresome conversations that take place.

Clarity... I can assure you, gay men are just as capable of head-games as straight men complain about.

Actually I think it has more to do with the fact that mating is seldom a matter of approaching a potential mate with the message "I want you, now." Maybe dogs do it that way but the lengthy mating rituals and competitions in the animal world suggest that mating in general involves hefty piles of nonsense.

If you're going for a casual hookup in a gay bar, there's a long sequence of eye contact and other nonverbal cues before it's appropriate to approach the target... by which time, both parties know pretty well whether they will hook up or not before a single word is exchanged. (Perhaps that's the clarity you're after?) Conversely, if you go up to someone without those nonverbal transactions, chances of failure are extremely high.

James

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was in Arizona in 2006 at the Different Skies event. The only station I could get played what they called Latino Hip Hop. It was fantastic, IMHO. I can't understand Spanish too well, so the lyrics didn't send or offend me. The music was more melodic than what I usually hear in hip hop, and they used a lot of trumpets and other mariachi band sounds in their samples. To me, this is the most enjoyable hip hop I've heard.

I've always love Latino and Brazilian pop music and jazz. I like Arabic pop music too. Maybe not focusing on the lyrics enables me to get it at a non-verbal level that is more satisfying to me.

Gay or straight music? I don't get that part of it. Seems like the music goes well beyond those issues to me. I mean, I'm straight, but I really love some music written by gays, like Bernstein and Tchaikovsky - many others too, of course.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:

No, I wouldn't say anything of the kind here.


It's still true.... I mean, if something always or often goes wrong for you there must be some common factor.


Quote:
Clarity... I can assure you, gay men are just as capable of head-games as straight men complain about.


Yes, that's true as well.

Quote:

If you're going for a casual hookup in a gay bar, there's a long sequence of eye contact and other nonverbal cues before it's appropriate to approach the target... by which time, both parties know pretty well whether they will hook up or not before a single word is exchanged. (Perhaps that's the clarity you're after?) Conversely, if you go up to someone without those nonverbal transactions, chances of failure are extremely high.


True, I've been to my share of gay bars, partially out of pure curiosity, partially to hang out with gay friends and partially because I often liked the music so I'm fine with non-verbally yet politely declining.

At one point I was quite cheerful about this tremendously efficient behaviour and went to the toilet. I almost bumped into a young man who was just walking out so we both made this typical "oops, I wasn't looking for trouble, I just didn't see you coming around the corner" gesture. So, he says "hi" and I say "hi"... and he asks me whether I'm French. A bit baffled I explain where I'm from (In English as this was in Amsterdam) and he goes back to the bar and I go pee.

Back with my company I ask whether I look French.

So, it gets explained to me that that doesn't matter and he was just making smalltalk hoping to pick me up.

So far for this "gay-communications-utopia" :¬).

Amusingly, years later I had a conversation similar to this one with a gay man who complained he hadn't been able to get into that same bar "because he looked too straight". Funny stuff.

But, yes, somebody should develop a few "straight looks" that expresses things like "you might as well talk substance because I'm not in the mood" and "would you like to come F with me?". House-wise straight people caught up pretty quickly but in the non-verbal communications department they are lagging terribly. It wouldn't hurt if being straight would be a social taboo for a few decades as I think that's what the gay community can "thank" for their non-verbal protocol.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

Gay or straight music? I don't get that part of it. Seems like the music goes well beyond those issues to me. I mean, I'm straight, but I really love some music written by gays, like Bernstein and Tchaikovsky - many others too, of course.


Yeah, but it exist. You can often know what preference a venue caters to by listening to the music. Aside from the things James mentioned a dead giveaway is disco with low (pitched) female vocals, particularly if the singer sounds especially empowered.

It gets more confusing as some music that "is" gay is made by straight people. Take the 12" version of "girl come out" by Swans for example.

Way more quotes are needed in this post, or perhaps a rewrite to E-prime.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I don't go to "venues" much. I mean, if you are gay in a straight club you might feel out of place, or if you are straight in a gay club you might feel out of place. But if you are over 60 you might feel out of place in any club. Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Then you'll have to take our word for it and listen to your music with neither the convenience nor limitations of such labels :¬)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Well, I don't go to "venues" much. I mean, if you are gay in a straight club you might feel out of place, or if you are straight in a gay club you might feel out of place. But if you are over 60 you might feel out of place in any club. Shocked


I dunno, it all depends on what kind of club it is. I've been to both intimidating and non-intimidating gay and straight clubs. The best clubs are those where there is no dress code and accepts any sexuality. These are the best.

Like electro-music.com? Rolling Eyes Idea Very Happy (Hmm maybe that's 'sucking up' a bit too much to Howard's ego?? Shocked Laughing )

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks - sucking up is ok with me - my ego could use some support. But, electro-music.com is not me; it's much more, of course. Smile
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