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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Scanner Chorus
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lots of pictures of my 2008 prototype added:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib/jh_interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib.html

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Last night, last thing before going to sleep, I modulated the Scanner Vibrato with Aftertouch and with Sample & Hold instead of the internal LFO. That was fun! Too tired to make samples last night, but maybe I will do this later.
That's something the mechanical device in a real Hammond isn't capable of!

JH. (off to work)

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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davebr



Joined: Jun 09, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:49 pm    Post subject: Finished the PCB
Subject description: Starting to debug the scanner chorus/vibrato
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I finished building the PCB and applied power. I started with the delay line and verified the input and tap outputs.

I'm going to use analog switches to select the various delay line taps or external inputs to use as an interpolating scanner.

I have some photos of the PCB and measurements at http://modularsynthesis.com/jhaible/jhscanner.htm

Dave
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Finished the PCB
Subject description: Starting to debug the scanner chorus/vibrato
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davebr wrote:
I finished building the PCB and applied power. I started with the delay line and verified the input and tap outputs.

I'm going to use analog switches to select the various delay line taps or external inputs to use as an interpolating scanner.

I have some photos of the PCB and measurements at http://modularsynthesis.com/jhaible/jhscanner.htm

Dave


Looks good!

Are these MAT-02 transistor pairs? Then you've got the "super-deluxe" version. Smile

BTW, for the Scanner to operate, you need the LEDs connected.
The control current of the VCAs flows directly thru the LEDs.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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davebr



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Finished the PCB
Subject description: Starting to debug the scanner chorus/vibrato
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Quote:
Are these MAT-02 transistor pairs? Then you've got the "super-deluxe" version. Smile

BTW, for the Scanner to operate, you need the LEDs connected.
The control current of the VCAs flows directly thru the LEDs.

JH.


Those are some old stock LM394's that I had.

I'm going to use the clear-shaft alpha pots with LEDs illuminating the knobs. I need to add 2 pin MTA connectors but ran out so am waiting for my Mouser order.

I'm going to try and fit this in a 3U MOTM-format module so the next step is to figure out all of my controls. I like what you did on your rack panel although I probably won't go with the dual LFO rates. Nice feature, though.

I find that it is always helpful to get a module running before deciding on the final control format and layout.

I'm trying to decide if I want to layout a support PCB with the DG409 analog switches and TL074 input buffers for the interpolating scanner portion. I am planning on using the switches to select external inputs with attenuators or three different tap feedbacks. Seems like a lot of wires to do by hand. Also, I was thinking of perhaps adding square pins with jumpers so I could change the feedback tap configuration. I'm not sure that is worth the board space so I'll experiment a bit and determine if that's really worth it.

Dave
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Finished the PCB
Subject description: Starting to debug the scanner chorus/vibrato
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davebr wrote:

I'm going to use the clear-shaft alpha pots with LEDs illuminating the knobs.


Great idea!

Quote:
I'm trying to decide if I want to layout a support PCB with the DG409 analog switches and TL074 input buffers for the interpolating scanner portion.


For buffering the delay line on-board, I've decided against TL074 opamps because of their offset. (The VCA inputs are all DC-coupled, and the more offset you have from channel to channel, the higher the CV feedthru.)
I've chosen LF412 opamps because they are the least expensive for decent offset. You can upgrade these to something more modern, better (and more expensive), but I wouldn't use TL072 opamps *there*.

Using TL074's elsewhere depends on the signal level. If you buffer +/-5V input signals, they are probably ok. (Though I don't quite understand why you would want to buffer them.)
Also, please keep in mind that when using the board in Scanner Vibrato mode, the voltage divider on each VCA input consists of 3 (not 2) resistors: Theres the 68R shunt at the transistor pair, and the series resistor is split in two resistors, one before the switch, and another after the switch. (That's to compensate for the decreasing signal level along the delay line.) So you should *not* add a buffer between these two resistors.
For Interpolating Scanner mode (with higher input signal levels), higher series resistors are recommended. If you only build an Interpolating Scanner, the higher resistor values go right on the PCB. (No splitting that resistor in two, then.)
If you combine Scanner Vibrato and Interpolating Scanner mode, you have to solder the lower resistor values to the board (for Vibrato), and add larger resistor values before the switching for Interpolating Scanner mode.
If you want to buffer, the buffers go *before* these resistors. But then again, why buffer at all?

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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whomper



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

I have finished building my scanner, and have run into a couple of questions:

1. Is there any way to make the LEDs brighter?
2. The LFO rate is very fast and when I am at 10% on the pot, it is already spinning like crazy. Is it possible to increase the sensitivity?
3. Similar for the LFO depth. 10% setting is already at full scale, 20% locks the position at the very right and there is no movement at all.

I tried to play a little with the trimmers, but to no avail.

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

whomper wrote:

1. Is there any way to make the LEDs brighter?


Only by choosing brighter LEDs.
What you need is LEDs that have their full brightness at 2mA.

Quote:
2. The LFO rate is very fast and when I am at 10% on the pot, it is already spinning like crazy. Is it possible to increase the sensitivity?


The CV input jack has a pullup resistor (R95) in order to feed a passive Volume pedal for speed control.
Therefore, you have to use a normalized jack that shorts the input (tip) to ground (sleeve) when nothing is connected.
The connector on the PCB is not normalized, of course, so when not using it, you have to put in a jumper that shorts the Rate CV input to GND.
If you don't, your scanner LFO sees a very high CV all the time.


Quote:
3. Similar for the LFO depth. 10% setting is already at full scale, 20% locks the position at the very right and there is no movement at all.


The Depth CV is *not* normalized like the Rate CV.
So something must be wrong.

Some guesses:
Too small resistor for R84 ?
CCW end of depth pot not at GND?

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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whomper



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

J.haible wrote:

Quote:
2. The LFO rate is very fast and when I am at 10% on the pot, it is already spinning like crazy. Is it possible to increase the sensitivity?


The CV input jack has a pullup resistor (R95) in order to feed a passive Volume pedal for speed control.
Therefore, you have to use a normalized jack that shorts the input (tip) to ground (sleeve) when nothing is connected.
The connector on the PCB is not normalized, of course, so when not using it, you have to put in a jumper that shorts the Rate CV input to GND.
If you don't, your scanner LFO sees a very high CV all the time.


Quote:
3. Similar for the LFO depth. 10% setting is already at full scale, 20% locks the position at the very right and there is no movement at all.


The Depth CV is *not* normalized like the Rate CV.
So something must be wrong.

Some guesses:
Too small resistor for R84 ?
CCW end of depth pot not at GND?

JH.


The two resistors are of correct value.

I have connected as per the diagram on site with the atten pots on the CVs. Even if I short the rate CV on board, it is still behaving as before.

Perhaps I should go for higher initial LFO depth and rate pots, like 500K?

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

whomper wrote:


The two resistors are of correct value.

I have connected as per the diagram on site with the atten pots on the CVs. Even if I short the rate CV on board, it is still behaving as before.

Perhaps I should go for higher initial LFO depth and rate pots, like 500K?


Then something else must be wrong.
Higher potentiometer resistance won't help.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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davebr



Joined: Jun 09, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Finished the PCB
Subject description: Starting to debug the scanner chorus/vibrato
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Quote:
If you want to buffer, the buffers go *before* these resistors. But then again, why buffer at all? JH.


I'm planning on using DG409s for the analog switches and was thinking of adding a buffer in front of them for input protection, to raise the input impedance, and to adjust the gain if needed. I haven't really thought through it all yet as I want to get ithe PCB running, use it for a bit, and then decide on the final features, controls, and panel layout.

I've done a preliminary 2U and 3U panel layout. 2U is obviously very tight but the knob spacing is similar to the Encore UEG. I've put an image of it on my site at http://modularsynthesis.com/jhaible/jhscanner.htm

Dave
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Finished the PCB
Subject description: Starting to debug the scanner chorus/vibrato
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davebr wrote:

I'm planning on using DG409s for the analog switches and was thinking of adding a buffer in front of them for input protection, to raise the input impedance, and to adjust the gain if needed.


Yes - protection makes sense.
As the electronic switches will have series resistors at all inputs and outputs, you could easily protect them with schottky diodes to the supply rails.
(You'd only have to protect these inpots that go to the front panel jacks.)
If you need higher impedance, you could also scale all the divider resistors up to a higher impedance level. Like, replacing all 68R resistors at the transistor pairs with 200R, and then multiplying all the (partial) series resistors by 3 as well. I'm sure you know which resitors are involved.
(If anybody else reads this and doesn't know which resistors: don't even try this. We're getting deep into the guts of the circuit here.)

Of course you can put buffers directly after the input jacks. But when you have noninverting amplifiers here, these want to see some protection as well - maybe even against exceeding common a mode level that is smaller than the supply voltage, and phase reversal.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jürgen,

Spend some time with understanding the scanner/vibrato.
But there are still some questions. Wink

- The connector "CH", what's its purpose?

- On the picture of your front panel, there are two switches "Chorus/Vibrato" and "Celeste/Vibrato"

How did you wire these switches and the "Chorus MIX" pot?
How do they work?


- What is the purpose of "CX", marked as unused in the schematic (vibrato, part 2)?

- What's the matter of "band limiting" and the use of the lowpass in the input of the vibrato?


- What is the purpose of the comment "Parameters: Offs. .5" in the scanner schematic?


thnx for help.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Serenadi wrote:

- The connector "CH", what's its purpose?


Referring to http://www.jhaible.heim.at/interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib/scanner_vibrato_2008_page2_sch.pdf

Connect a switch to CH.
Switch closed = Vibrato mode (lower side of delay line capacitors grounded).
Switch opened = Chorus mode (delay line lifted with 1kOhm, R103)
That means delayed signal and direct signal are mixed directly in the delay line.

Quote:
- On the picture of your front panel, there are two switches "Chorus/Vibrato" and "Celeste/Vibrato"


Chorus/Vibrato is what I just described.
Celeste is an option for which no on-board connector is provided, namely removing the termination resistor of the delay line, R104, from the circuit and thus causing reflections of the delayed signal back towards the input of the delay line. If you want to implement this, lift one side of R104 from the PCB, and re-connect it via a switch.

Quote:
How did you wire these switches and the "Chorus MIX" pot?
How do they work?


The Resistor R103 sets the amount of dry signal that's mixed to the wet (delayed) signal. You can replace this with a potentiometer. I've used a 10k log potentiometer, with the variable resistor taken from the lower end (between wiper and ccw end).


Quote:
- What is the purpose of "CX", marked as unused in the schematic (vibrato, part 2)?


It's unused. Smile

Such a capacitor is used in some Hammonds, to do some fine-tuning of impedance matching towards the end of the delay line. You can experiment with a cap here, but I didn't bother to try at as it sounds good as it is, without it, IMO.

Quote:
- What's the matter of "band limiting" and the use of the lowpass in the input of the vibrato?


The delay line is band-limited to several kHz. Just as a Hammond organ is.
But if you run a bright synthesizer signal into the scanner vibrato, the first position of the delay line may sound overly bright, compared to the others, so you can do some simple (12dB/Oct) pre-filtering if you like.


Quote:
- What is the purpose of the comment "Parameters: Offs. .5" in the scanner schematic?


That's just for PSpice: To set the output DC offset trimmer (R47) to mid position (50%).

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great. Thank you. Very Happy
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davebr



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:06 pm    Post subject: CV Controls
Subject description: What are ranges?
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What are the ranges for the Depth CV and Rate CV? The Scan CV is listed as +/- 5 volts. Is any input protection required for over / under voltage?

Dave
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davebr



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Panel Design
Subject description: 2U vibrato/chorus - interpolating scanner
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I've validated all the functionality on the PCB so it's time to turn my attention to the panel design. I have fit this on a MOTM 2U panel and used clear shaft potentiometers to incorporate the leds into the controls. I drilled a center hole in mini-MOTM knobs and finished with an eyelet.

My FrontPanelExpress design file is on my page. It's a really tight panel.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

http://modularsynthesis.com/jhaible/jhscanner.htm
Dave

Last edited by davebr on Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:11 pm; edited 3 times in total
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: CV Controls
Subject description: What are ranges?
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davebr wrote:
What are the ranges for the Depth CV and Rate CV? The Scan CV is listed as +/- 5 volts. Is any input protection required for over / under voltage?
Dave


Protection:

Scan CV and Rate CV: +/-15V (probably a lot more)
Depth CV: +15V / -5V (if you need protection for +/-15V, add a 1N4148 from emitter of Q30 (cathode) to GND (anode)

Range:

To change Scan CV sensitivity to 5V (= +/-2.5V), change R81 to 51k.

Depth CV: +5V will be enough to get full scan range (and a bit more) with Depth potentiometer at zero (full ccw).

Rate CV: Not specified - just try it, and if it's not enough, decrease R94 and R95 values. (R95 should be about 1/2 of R94, or can be omitted when you don't need to connect a passive volume pedal here.)

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Appliancide*



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I was for some reason under the impression that the scanner/waveshaper module was built differently than the chorus/vibrato module. Is not the case? Can one module be used for both purposes (obviously not at the same time)?
Sorry for the dumb question, I am just getting into this stuff.

Paul
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morbank



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: AC Power Adapter? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello All,
So I've populated my PCB (Interpolating Scanner version) and I'm getting my controls in order but I've got a few questions...

- Power supply's proved to much for me on JH's Compact Phaser but he was able to figure out a way for me to use an AC adapter, is there any way to use an adapter for the Interpolating Scanner?

- Do I need the inverting amp allowing for both polarities (left & right scan)?

- Does the Interpolating Scanner use the lag switch?

Thanks, Clay
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

*Appliancide* wrote:
Ok, I was for some reason under the impression that the scanner/waveshaper module was built differently than the chorus/vibrato module. Is not the case? Can one module be used for both purposes (obviously not at the same time)?
Sorry for the dumb question, I am just getting into this stuff.

Paul


Short reply: With some hacking you can make it work both ways.
Long reply: later. (gotta run to day job.)

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: AC Power Adapter? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbank wrote:

- Power supply's proved to much for me on JH's Compact Phaser but he was able to figure out a way for me to use an AC adapter, is there any way to use an adapter for the Interpolating Scanner?


Yes - basically the same type of power supply.

Quote:
Do I need the inverting amp allowing for both polarities (left & right scan)?


Scanning "left" is an option that may be nice, but not necessary.
(For this, you need an inverting amp that is not included on the PCB.)

Quote:
Does the Interpolating Scanner use the lag switch?


The Lag function is part of the on-board LFO Rate.. You can use this for the interpolating scanner version as well (in addition to the external CV), and here you can use the lag function.
Lag does not work on external CVs. (But you can easily change the circuit so that it does.)

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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morbank



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re:AC Power Adapter? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the info Jurgen!

Quote:
The Lag function is part of the on-board LFO Rate.. You can use this for the interpolating scanner version as well (in addition to the external CV), and here you can use the lag function.


I guess the real question is, what exactly is the fuction of the lag in conjuction with the LFO rate?
-Clay

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Appliancide*



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
*Appliancide* wrote:
Ok, I was for some reason under the impression that the scanner/waveshaper module was built differently than the chorus/vibrato module. Is not the case? Can one module be used for both purposes (obviously not at the same time)?
Sorry for the dumb question, I am just getting into this stuff.

Paul


Short reply: With some hacking you can make it work both ways.
Long reply: later. (gotta run to day job.)

JH.


I just ordered a board so I would love to hear how to do this when you have a chance. It is no hurry at all. I will taking on simpler projects first, so it will be a while before I take this on.

Thanks!
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

*Appliancide* wrote:
jhaible wrote:
*Appliancide* wrote:
Ok, I was for some reason under the impression that the scanner/waveshaper module was built differently than the chorus/vibrato module. Is not the case? Can one module be used for both purposes (obviously not at the same time)?
Sorry for the dumb question, I am just getting into this stuff.

Paul


Short reply: With some hacking you can make it work both ways.
Long reply: later. (gotta run to day job.)

JH.


I just ordered a board so I would love to hear how to do this when you have a chance. It is no hurry at all. I will taking on simpler projects first, so it will be a while before I take this on.

Thanks!


First of all, you need 9-pole switching instead of just 8 poles, because for the chorus/vibrato the first (of 9) VCAs is hard-wired on the PCB.
Then, your switch needs 4 positions (9-pole, 4-throw), as you want to select the 3 Chorus/Vibrato modes, plus enter the Scanner/Waveshaper mode.

Still interested?

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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