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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Thomas Henry designs
THD107 Quadrature Function Generator PCB's HAVE ARRIVED!
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
there arent any extras are there?

Hi all,

First, to answer Loss's question, YES, there are more THD107A QFG PCB's available. Laughing

Most of your previously ordered QFG boards have been shipped. Here are the Schematics and BOM to go with them. Also I've included an enlarged Component ID REF /placement diagram, which unfortunately is a little less crisp than the original due to its being backplotted from the original Silkscreen Gerbers with limited software to do the translating.

In the build document (posting soon) there is a list of component locations by x,y coordinates. I used Thomas's original part reference numbering, and I've read here that some of you prefer component numbering that is associated to the PCB instead of the schematic. Since that's not possible without changing the original part numbering, I hope the X,Y component location info will be of some use.

I believe the Schematics to be an accurate reflection of the THD107A PCB, but they were drawn after the board, and so are not linked directly to its creation. So I'll appreciate hearing of any mistakes you may find. It's been checked and re-checked, but I just want to give a heads up that the board itself was created from Thomas's original schem and hand routed, rather than being electronically linked to this schematic.

I'll add that doing a BOM with full part ordering info for an unknown variety of builders is MUCh harder than I originally thought it would be for such a simple board! Shocked I tried to pick the less expensive options, but I think in the future I'll just spec the parts fully and leave the part numbers to someone else! Wink As it is, I've included a list of URLs at the bottom of the BOM to help with some part decisions I simply can't make for you, without knowing more about your format and ultimate use.

Kind regards, Randal


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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem wrote:
So I'll appreciate hearing of any mistakes you may find.

And of course somehow the physical act of posting reminds the mind of what it left off! Embarassed

I set up an independent dirty GND for the LED's. So there's a link which goes between two pads I labeled R00 on the PCB Lower right and page two of the schem (Also lower right, how about that! Very Happy ) if you choose not to maintain separate GNDs. The R00 link joins the two PCB GNDs at one point, physically near the return to the main supply. Without it you'll need to connect to your system's dirty GND or the LEDs won't! Smile

Anyways, I accidentally left it (R00) off the BOM. I've been putting a "zero-ohm" resistor (single black band) in the package for each board so you don't need to order it. And a clipped resistor lead would do as well If I didn't include the z0R. But if you were wondering what the DG and R00 were about, now you know!

Kind regards, Randal

Last edited by Randaleem on Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randal, these look great, but would you also mind knocking up BOM's for suppliers in other countries other than the USA? Mouser aren't very understanding for those outside the USA. Evil or Very Mad

Kind regards Wink

Tom

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem wrote:

I'll add that doing a BOM with full part ordering info for an unknown variety of builders is MUCh harder than I originally thought it would be for such a simple board! Shocked I tried to pick the less expensive options, but I think in the future I'll just spec the parts fully and leave the part numbers to someone else! :wink


Ahh Okay.

Here is Rapid's address in case you change your mind Very Happy

http://www.rapidonline.com/

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I'll add that doing a BOM with full part ordering info for an unknown variety of builders is MUCh harder than I originally thought.


I might add it would be a full time job unto itself. I purposely left such information out of the Klee build doc.

Other than it being a lot of work, if you list all the American suppliers and part numbers, it becomes American-centric, if you list all of the European suppliers and part numbers, it becomes Euro-centric. What about the Australian and Pac-Rim builders? The Antarctic builders?

That, and I plain don't know all the juicy supply houses anywhere but here. I figure a DIY project is being built by DIYers, and they know better where to get their parts than I do. If anything, listing something at Mouser may just put the blinders on relative newbies and they might end up paying more for something that might have been easily available down the street. If there are questions, people know where/whom to ask.

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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Scott!

Total agreement.

OTOH several people had enquired both on and offlist for a QFG BOM with mouser numbers as offered by Magic Smoke for the Mankato. So they've now got one!

But again? Total agreement. Laughing

Kind regards, Randal
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Coriolis



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Most of your previously ordered QFG boards have been shipped.

Eh...you are shipping the boards? I must have missed a post here on that or what?

C
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:04 am    Post subject: MOTM Format FPE Panel
Subject description: My MOTM Format Panel for the THD107A
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Hi all,

Here is a 1U FPE Panel in MOTM format that I will be using for my own Quadrature Generator. I omitted the fine control and will possibly use a ten-turn pot for the main rate control instead. I also opted for only one modulation input with the intent to mix CVs externally. Kind of simple, but it is space saving. I did not want to commit 2U to this due to space concerns in my modular. Thanks to Randall for putting this PCB together based of yet another great TH design. Heres hoping for that quad VCA to come soon so I can get rockin' with the quad panning!

Thomas
www.naturalrhythmmusic.com/diy.html


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Thomas.

Thanks for the contribution, but nothing works this end. is a 'pfd' a valid file? It's only coming down as 4kb here Confused

edit. DOH! My stupid mistake! 'front panel designer'!!

Could you doewnload a pdf instead?

Thanks for the file

(damn macintosh Laughing )

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Thomas
like the design I think I may use this for my 2 panels

and for lucky sods with a macintosh I have upped a PDF


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: MOTM Format FPE Panel
Subject description: My MOTM Format Panel for the THD107A
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djthomaswhite wrote:
Here is a 1U FPE Panel in MOTM format that I will be using for my own Quadrature Generator.Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Did you intend to leave off the V/Oct CV input? I didn't see a reference to it in your description of the why's of your choices. If that wasn't a planned result, you could probably put the range toggle amidst the LED rings to free up a 1/4" jack location. Wouldn't necessarily need the hi,med lo labeling due to the LED's giving pretty quick and nearby feedback to the switch's position meaning?

I've noticed now that several people have presented designs with the LED's and/or Output jacks in a "Z" pattern (operationally) instead of the "O" pattern that seems more useful to me.

So perhaps I'm missing something here?

I'd expect the LED's to follow the electrical phase relationship with 0 on the "starting line", 90 above it, 180 is back on it, and 270 is below. From there electrically we go to 360, which is the same as zero in this case. This is the same way we'd draw the triangle waveforms of the QFG output (Above and below GND). On the panel these would be a diamond shape as you have drawn, but with different labeling than you're showing.

Similarly, the Output jacks would be following the electrical phase angle relationship, but constrained to a rectangle due to panel size. So they'd be top left 0, top right 90,bottom right 180, bottom left 270. Done this way, if you patch each "corner" of the output jacks to a "corner" of the room, when that VCA does its thing, you'll have the expected circular movement. The way you (and others) have it, the sound would follow a zigzag "Z" instead of a circle unless you "crossed paths" relative to the panel layout. Hope this makes sense. (OR, 0 could be LL, 90UL, 180UR, 270LR. Depends whether you mentally "roll" the LED "diamond" backwards or forwards to fit the jacks pattern.)

Laid out as I've described, any adjacent jack or led is a 90 shift, a 180/inversion is a diagonal visually. Ergonomically this makes sense to me?

Anyways, since I've now seen several panels from different people done this way (Starting with Bugbrands), I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing which makes the 0, 90, 270, 180 "Z" layout better in some way than the 0, 90, 180, 270 "O-shaped" one?

Here's a PDF of your design edited to my described layout for comparison.

What am I missing here?

Next, Let me throw out one more possible reason to have an expanded panel. If you use one output OF the QFG to modulate itself; you can create 4 distinctly different patterns in a resulting waveform. All four are nice, but Two are especially interesting from a control perspective. First of these is a "gothic window arch", or two log curves back to back. But the real sleeper is the second one is more widely known as a "hypertriangular" waveform, which is two expo curves back to back. This waveform spends less time at the peak, and more along the way to and from it. It has been shown to result in a more natural sound when used in control of phasing and flanging. (And other places too!) Here you can get it for "free" by simply using one of the outputs into a modulation input. Extremely useful.

Having done this, you no longer have a modulation input for anything else, like a higher frequency "wiggle/chorus/movement" modulation...

Then, Having dual outputs lets you use one for modulations, and the second to feed that VCA you mentioned.

Just wanted to mention that you may be leaving a lot of the raw power of this thing locked up when you go with a minimal panel. (Yes, you can still patch most of this in somehow, but it's far easier as part of the module in this case, IMO.)

Kind regards, Randal


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djthomaswhite



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Panel Choices
Subject description: ...continuation of the "why's"
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Hey Randal,

Thanks for the feedback and questions. Let me try to address them.

1v/oct jack Missing: Not really planning to use this as a VCO where that type of tracking would be needed. All of the CV's are summed and I figure that summing can take place in an external mixer into one jack with a knob to control the level. If the CV input had a reversing attenuator I would have had two jacks for sure.

Panel labeling: I went with the LED labeling to go along with the other rotary module in my system (sequencer) where the start of the rotation is at 12'oclock. Since the Jacks at the bottom would be in a square formation I did not see the importance of tryin to get close with labels when still not being able to get a diamond-shaped jack layout on the 4 output jacks.

Jack Labeling: I will switch my jack labeling to reverse the bottom two labels. I didn't even think about that when throwing the design together. Thanks for bringing that up!

My panel design may change a bit once I get the PCB. I always wait to order panels until I actually have the pcb in hand to give one last consideration to the chosen design. I do have one question though... how do you guys go about getting the FPE designs into these nice pdf documents? Never tried that before but it would be handy for future postings. Thanks gang. Very Happy Glad to be on the list,

Thomas

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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:17 am    Post subject: Re: Panel Choices
Subject description: ...continuation of the "why's"
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HI Thomas,

Thank you for the details of your reasoning! It's always nice to see another perspective! Especially for something one is close enough to, that he (I) might be missing the forest in the trees!

As for that attenuverter "driving" the inclusion of a second summing jack, you might want to include that second jack. If you look closely at my prelim larger QFG panel, you'll see the -1,0,+1 label on one mod input, with 1,10 (should've been 0,10) on the other. I've got a couple little very inexpensive additions to the QFG adressing this desire/need in a unique way. And a second expressed one too! (I don't want to say more until the boards are in hand, but I'd include that second jack. Laughing) I kitchen sinked this PCB before I understood that I could sell QFG kits but not completed modules. My loss is your gain!

Notice also the extra power supply pads in a couple places on the PCB, as seen on the PCB pics at the beginning of this thread and on the large component ID reference page I posted as a PDF.

On that note, here's where I give the requested "Props" to Shawn for that PDF ease!

Because He is the one who discovered and documented a way to easily go from the FPD files to DXF for use in a CNC machine which he shared with me to beta test for him awhile back. It's pretty slick! One of the steps in his process is to use a pdf printer driver. We both independently ended up choosing cutePDF writer. This is a free 3rd party windows printer driver that basically magically creates a pdf from nearly anything you'd normally print another way.

So to post the PDF of your FPE panel, I simply chose cutePDF as my "printer" in FPE, told it where to save the file and pressed "Print".

All thanks and appreciation for the ability to do that (in my case) go to Shawn! Props!

BTW, We're glad to have you here!

Kind regards, Randal
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:50 am    Post subject: Re: Panel Choices
Subject description: ...continuation of the "why's"
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Randaleem wrote:
HI Thomas,

that he (I) might be missing the forest in the trees!




No no, no, no, NO!

(removed emoticon- wasn't quite the one I wanted to use- and caused a lot of trouble- my bad. Embarassed btw, this post was never a 'knock' just having fun with everybody- including myself! Wink Smile )

The expression goes;

"Can't see the wood for the trees" !!!

Bloody yanks with their feeble attempts of "playing on English"- god forbid!! Rolling Eyes Laughing

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Panel Choices
Subject description: ...continuation of the "why's"
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Randaleem wrote:
[...]to the QFG adressing this desire/need in a unique way.

in the diy forum we recently collected ways to do attenuvertion. any chance you post a schematic of your method?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Panel Choices
Subject description: ...continuation of the "why's"
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v-un-v wrote:
Randaleem wrote:
HI Thomas,

that he (I) might be missing the forest in the trees!



No no, no, no, NO!

The expression goes;

"Can't see the wood for the trees" !!!

Bloody yanks with their feeble attempts of "playing on English"- god forbid!!


idioms are funny things, very regional. i'd always heard "can't see the forest for the trees", myself. using google as a rough gauge of actual (worldwide) usage:

"forest in the trees"--824 hits
"wood for the trees"--approx 188,000
"forest for the trees"--approx 597,000

fortunately, lanuage is a living thing, so (with the help of this post) "forest in the trees" just gained a couple google points... i kind of like it, it's got a nice poetic twist, so i'll start using it more often.

aside: v-un-v, that fingerwagging icon seems to be emblematic of several of your recent posts... did the queen appoint you Principal Scolder, or is some nuance escaping me?

b
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While I am waiting for my QFG boards to arrive, I did have a question for Randaleem, namely, has one of these boards been built yet, and if so, got some pics and samples? I intend to run one of my at low range, and the other at audio range. The low freq version I am thinking using it for Orban-Parasound-ish effects with a VCA array. The audio version I will add it to the arsenal, with some of Ian's waveshapers.

Thanks for the docs, too.

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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
While I am waiting for my QFG boards to arrive,
On that note: The last of the individual QFG's will go out in Tomorrow's mail.

Quote:
I did have a question for Randaleem, namely, has one of these boards been built yet, and if so, got some pics


Yes. In the interest of "brevity" Wink I've replaced a raw PCB pic on the first page of this thread with a completed protobuild pic. The other 49+ from the build document will not be posted here! Very Happy

You can see in the posted pic the v/oct trimmer laid down as I described in the BOM. You can also see that I didn't have top adjusting 100K trimmers, and made an error in putting said side adjusting screws towards the top of the module (where I figured they'd be easier to adjust after completion.) TOTALLY forgetting the HUGE 2.2uF Cap that "would" soon be in the way! Embarassed You can also see that I used a large-ish blue C12 .001 timing cap to show the room you have for large caps in all three range positions.

The board has been run at both 12 and 15V with standard values, and no ill effects have been noted. (Thanks here due to another excellent design from Thomas Henry!)

The MTA power connector you see has been reversed both with and without (12 and 15V) power on and the protection circuitry works as expected. No damage. Even when I can see sparks as I remove and attach the connector. I did not tempt fate by repeatedly reversing and correcting in a short timeframe however. And I wouldn't suggest that, though it would probably be okay. The PTC's used have an extremely low resistance so there is no need to leave them out in a 12v version. (This is th efirst time I've used this kind of circuit protection, and to be honest, I didn't feel like it wass going to be an ongoingthing in future modules due to space and cost. But now that I've seen it in action, It will become part of the routine! (Still considering whether it might be better situated on a distro board as Peter G has done with the Plan B distro. But IMO its value and utility is readily apparent, and the cost is negligable in comparison. Thank you John Blacet!)

All controls work as expected, mod input and v/oct also okay. Standard red and green single LEDS have been tried successfully. And then 2 lead bipolar red/green were tried and this is what I'd strongly suggest using. I will be changing the BOM to reflect this. I set them so that green was positive and red negative. VERY useful. No added circuitry needed.

Both JRC13700's and National LM13700's were tried with no discernable difference observed at any point of operation. The board you see in the pic has been powered up and "manufacturing triangles" for several days at a time.

All in all, I'm pleased with the results, and see no reason to expect that anyone else won't be. Again, one must look to Thomas Henry in admiration, thanks and respect. And also to Scott Stites for building his "bridge" from TH to us all.

Quote:
and samples?

This is my Achilles heel. I explained to Scott that I've never actually recorded anything, ever with a PC. He suggested a freeware program (Audiology?) that I have not yet taken the time to install or learn. That will change in the next couple weeks, but as for now, I remain a single live performance only synthesist. Soon others will be able to fill in this blank.

Quote:
I intend to run one of my at low range, and the other at audio range. The low freq version I am thinking using it for Orban-Parasound-ish effects with a VCA array.

Should be no problem.

Quote:
The audio version I will add it to the arsenal, with some of Ian's waveshapers.


Well, I did provide two R11 positions to attempt to "help" those wanting to use this more as a VCO with a tempco. But, as was mentioned here previously, the filter caps used to smooth the connect transition come into play at audio rates using the standard values. A nice pseudo-sine wave begins to appear at about 4kHz, where soon after it also begins attenuating. So if triangle wave audio is your goal (Thomas designed this as an LFO), you'll likely want to attend to C3 and C4, and perhaps some resistor changes as well. There is ample audio range, going from sub-audio to beyond hearing with the rate pot (and attenuated to silence by the filter) using Thomas's suggested .001uF c12 tuning value. (With the triangle slope distortion mentioned by Thomas and Scott at frequency extrema relative to chosen cap value.)

Quote:
Thanks for the docs, too.

More docs are coming; brevity it seems, is not my strong suite!

Thank YOU all for the orders, patience and support!

Kind regards, Randal
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

IIRC, it was Audacity. Download that and fire up some samples!

It'll do until you can get one of those multi-track recorders, which are really nice.

Cheerio,
Scott

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Randaleem



Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:06 am    Post subject: Re: Panel Choices
Subject description: ...continuation of the "why's"
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fonik wrote:
Randaleem wrote:
[...]to the QFG adressing this desire/need in a unique way.
in the diy forum we recently collected ways to do attenuvertion. any chance you post a schematic of your method?

Hi Fonik!

Sorry, somehow I missed this post of yours before now. There is nothing special or unique about the attenuverter circuit, in fact the little utility PCB I'm making supports several types of "AUV" as seen in that other thread you've mentioned.

The "unique" part I referred to is how the PCB mounts and is used. More on that when they're ready for use.

Kind regards, Randal
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EdisonRex
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Joined: Mar 07, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randall, thanks for that. By "audio frequency" I think 3kHz is probably tops. I'll be using it for some complex modulation. Anyway, your picture shows me what I need to see.

and yes, Audacity - if you wonder how fast I can post audio clips, Audacity is the reason. You'll wonder how you got along without it before.

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janvanvolt



Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Mainz, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's my front panel design (dotcom style) :

http://apollo.open-ears.de/pdf/thd107-demo.pdf

maybe i'm doing a silkscreen for it, but not sure about it yet.

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RF



Joined: Mar 23, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's nice, Unit-sound.
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janvanvolt



Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RF wrote:
That's nice, Unit-sound.


For those who are curious, i am currently working on a frontpanel for the upcoming Haible FrequencyShifter :

http://apollo.open-ears.de/pdf/fs1a-demo.pdf

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TheAncientOne



Joined: Dec 26, 2006
Posts: 144
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

unit-sound wrote:
Here's my front panel design (dotcom style) :

http://apollo.open-ears.de/pdf/thd107-demo.pdf



I think this may have been asked before, but I have to admit my seach-fu is weak: What technique did you use for your panel layout? I like the way it gives such a realistic view of the panel.

Thanks

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