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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
If I'd consider making a pcb for a flanger ...
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Absolutely fascinating. I think Craig Anderton did a review of that unit in DEVICE.
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know there's an interview with St. Croix in Device (I think it's a two-parter). Hmmm....I need to Mark Hammer's site in the quick links list.

Cheers,
Scott

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:

http://dkse.net/radio/St.Croix_MTM.mp3


Some great stuff here!

JH.

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

An attempt to create thru zero flanging with the Storm Tide Flanger, with a short fixed digital delay (hooked up my Deltalab) in the send/return loop of the dry signal path.

The cancellation effect is certainly there, but I think it still lacks something.

JH.


jh_storm_tide_plus_fixed_delay_thru_zero.mp3
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's an example of actual tape flanging, more for reference than anything else (and maybe a little shameless self-promotion too Wink ).

The process was as follows. The tune was mixed down from computer to a cassette tape. The tape mix was then bounced back to the computer. This tape mix on the computer was then dubbed off again to the tape deck, and that mix bounced back to the computer again. Now I had two tape mixes, which I then aligned by eye on the computer. As mentioned before, the tape bouncing caused these two mixes to be opposite from each other in phase. I expected that these manually aligned unsynced mixes would be enough to generate flanging, but not so--I guess my tape deck is too solid for its own good! So I had to cheat a little by modulating the second mix in the computer. This was done with a sine wave at about .2 Hz, wavering between zero and about 10 mS. That proved to give some good instances of TZF. The first and most extreme example takes place about 50 seconds into the tune.

The thru-zero sound is hard to quantify, but it seems to me that even in the most extreme case, there is some skewing of frequency, amplitude, or time that prevents total cancellation of signal. Anyway, hopefully this will help somehow in the quest to "zero-in" on some good flanging sounds.

Joe

Last edited by germaniac on Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Germaniac, Juergen,

both clips are very nice! Germaniac's 'real' flange definitely has a more 'subtle', (for lack of better description) thru zero point than Juergen's circuit. However, being a rock guy, I do really like Juergen's. Rock and subtle are usually two words you don't see together.
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para



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JH a couple things, some you probably already know.

thru-zero is not wildly dramatic, it just sounds really good. it doesn’t need any feedback but having it helps to make it more dramatic. its just created by having a (usually smoothly changing) time shift in one track (or both). for thru zero the time shift needs to be capable of moving in time before and after the source which means the source needs to be pushed ahead in time to a point the effected track can pass moving faster then it and then again backwards moving slower then it.

can you try it without adding any feedback or resonance at all (or as clean as possible) and see what it sounds like? this should also help you get the settings in the ball park

you don’t need to invert them as the phase relationship is what you are changing when shifting it in time so its redundant, but if there were for example limits in the amount of time it can be shifted then inverting one could help reach your goals. i don’t think that will be an issue though

also it might be the case that the two machines you tested this out on are just different enough to have changed the signals so they are no longer identical and thus don’t cancel when in phase with each other. they need to be exactly the same or the effect will be subtle at best.

it also sounds like your sine lfo is a bit peaky and almost a sharp tri shaped at the top so it doesn’t slowly change but rather jumps up and back out too fast


-

as for recording things back and forth to tape and then adding digital flange or modulation, or whatever you did. well that is just what it is, adding tape hiss and digital flange. its not tape flanging and its not thru-zero. real tape flanging is achieved by having two separate machines playing identical copies of the same thing at exactly the same time and you then ( in the case of reel to reels) hold your finger on one reel to slow it down a little and create a slowly changing phase difference (delay) and then let go a little and allow it to speed up again to catch the other (if its allowed to get too far behind it will become a slap-back delay). while that side is speeding back up you hold your finger on the reel of the other machine and slow it down so that the other one can catch up and while it does you continue the flanging process with that machine and go back and forth. this can also me done with the pitch controls if the machine has them but they are usually not fine enough in range to get a great result. the nice thing about this is that its not a perfect sine wave and you can do it at key moments and different speeds to emphasize special moments in a track as opposed to the perfect steady sine or other shape of a basic ready made flange device or plugin. to do this in the digital world the best way is to have an external adjustable clock synced to the machine and manually adjust the speed of the playback device and record the result and then toss it into a multitrack and align it against the source making sure to time shift it just right.


steven
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Joe,

Loved the track!

Cheers,
Scott

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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There's always anti-phase modulation of the delay lines; perhaps a "less tame" and tighter wound version of the Dim D/Dim C setup. As long as those clocks don't heterodyne.

Cheers,
Scott

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Steven

para wrote:

thru-zero is not wildly dramatic, it just sounds really good.


Yes, now that I've reproduced it, I think that cancellation point isn't all that interesting. It's the way that point is approached, and left again, that matters. And in that regard, I think the sound sample I have posted is lacking, compared to the tape sound sample, and also to the Marshall sound sample.

Quote:
can you try it without adding any feedback or resonance at all (or as clean as possible) and see what it sounds like? this should also help you get the settings in the ball park


Well, my clip was done without any feedback!

Quote:
you don’t need to invert them as the phase relationship is what you are changing when shifting it in time so its redundant,


No, I think for cancellation you need signal inversion. The time delay will at no point shift the phase of all harmonics by exactly 180 degrees.

Quote:
also it might be the case that the two machines you tested


By this you mean the two tape machines example, or my combination of BBD flanger and Deltalab delay?

Quote:

it also sounds like your sine lfo is a bit peaky and almost a sharp tri shaped at the top so it doesn’t slowly change but rather jumps up and back out too fast


Asuming this is directed towards my example: There has been no LFO modulation at all. The LFO was my right hand, plus the Bounce feature.
But you're right about something being wrong with the modulation shape. Only I'm convinced it's not the modulation source's fault, it's the exponential CV control law's fault, especially under the circumstance that it's effectively truncated because the zero point is reached much earlier than the ear expects it from the previous modulation, as the zero point is approached - because of the rather long fixed delay in the direct path! (sorry for the long sentence - I hope this makes sense.)
I'm quite convinced with a 1/x modulation the effect would be much better, when you're sweeping up to the cancellation point.
Having passed that point, and sweeping up even more, I think the 1/x would sound wrong again. (would it? - I have to look at it more closely ...)
That's why, IMO, the Tau phaser, which never actually reaches a zero delay point (but gets very close), sounds more convincingly like a Thru Zero Flanger:
As soon as that "almost zero" point is reached, it modulates the pole frequency down again in an 1/x fashion, thus preserving the linear time modulation - the same as you get from one tape moving against a second, with a rather constant speed difference. Weather one reel is actually overtaking the other (real thing), or reversing after reaching the equal point, doesn't matter for the notches in the frequency response, and their movement in time.
The same is true for a BBD with 1/x clock frequency modulation that goes up to really high clock frequencies.

Does this make any sense?

JH.

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para



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i meant the two devices you used. i'm not familiar with either so i don't know if they are changing the signal by themselves enough to make them not identical. just putting it out there.

i'm going to not agree that formal inverting matters as much as you think, but as i stated before it doesn't matter so i'm not going to argue. the same goal is achieved both ways Smile

"effectively truncated because the zero point is reached much earlier than the ear expects it " - that explains what my ears were hearing better then my guess of a sharp tipped tri wave.

"Having passed that point, and sweeping up even more, I think the 1/x would sound wrong again. " - not sure if i understand you here? but the zero crossing should be reached about halfway up/down the slope of the modulation, not at the peak. you want to move past it on both sided equally. its the way that each modulation pulse goes back and forth and having each side sounding a little different with different notches and phase relationships that makes it so great. not just crossing the cancellation point a little bit and going back. so you need to have the "source" about what ... like 60ms ahead of the "effected" side so you can send the effected side forward and back from 0ms to about a 120ms range (guessing here, maybe less?) or far enough to get the effect.



you know, i'm very happy with the sound of the Tau and if you want to scrap the zero crossing idea here i'd be fine with that, the Tau is close enough and fantastic sounding. also i have several reel decks and variable speed cassette decks (not to mention hardware and software effects) here to never need another flange so i won't be upset. this is probably not what you had in mind and its just straying you from your original plain.


steven
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When I built the Dim C, there was a sort of running commentary on it at Aaron's Stompbox Forum. At the time, Mike Irwin mentioned a tap point for both wet delay lines that produced some fairly decent TZF effects. I had it on breadboard at the time and liked it enough that I tapped and buffered it, and put it on an output jack.

The tap point was just after the expanders and before the de-emphasis. I tried setting up a separate de-emphasis for that signal, but thought at the time it dulled it too much, so left it as it was. Hence, it's always a bit trebly.

The TZF effect itself is nice, but fairly subtle. I left it the way it was, because I was really after the Dim C effect at the time, and didn't want to go through concentrating on making it a full-on TZF box. As with most effects devices, running noise through it greatly demonstrates what's going on. This sounded pretty good with noise going through it, though, IIRC, the effect was not as intense as JH's sample - I don't think the notch depth on this is quite as great (I could probably tweak that a bit).

Be that as it may, I really liked the how the sweep worked out for TZF. Because the Dim C modulates both delay lines equally but anti-phase, the zero point can be met in the middle of the sweep (in this case, the modulation depth determines at what point in the sweep TZF occurs, if at all). One does have to halve the sweep rate. I have other tricks in there I won't bore you with, but this might be a neat experiment to try with something originally designed to flange. I think it would be easy to try using Germaniac's technique.

As an aside, I believe he did produce TZF with that - if the tracks were offset so his 0 to 10 mS delay moved the modulated track + and - of the fixed track in time, it will pass through Delta T=0, if the offset is less than the sweep range, and the swept track is initially "ahead" of the fixed track.

TZF, I think, is most dramatic as a master effect on recorded material where there is an abundance of harmonic content - IE, the two master tapes being flanged, rather than individual instruments. Of course, that's not the rule, and there are some great examples of tape flanging on drums out there, for example.

Anyway, I don't have any noise samples handy, but here's a multi-track sample of it processing my DW6000. All the tracks are processed through the Dim C TZF output, with different sweep rates and depths, with no other effects in there. Of course, this dilutes the effect and makes it harder to pick up on (great demo, huh?). Be that as it may, I used it individually on each track here, and, as I said, it's subtle, but you might catch some of those sweeps I'm talking about. Musically, it's nothing to write home about.


Cheers,
Scott

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germaniac



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:
real tape flanging is achieved by having two separate machines playing identical copies of the same thing at exactly the same time and you then ( in the case of reel to reels) hold your finger on one reel to slow it down a little and create a slowly changing phase difference (delay) and then let go a little and allow it to speed up again to catch the other (if its allowed to get too far behind it will become a slap-back delay). while that side is speeding back up you hold your finger on the reel of the other machine and slow it down so that the other one can catch up and while it does you continue the flanging process with that machine and go back and forth. this can also me done with the pitch controls if the machine has them but they are usually not fine enough in range to get a great result.

This is a good explanation of the tape flanging process, and in case my own explanation wasn't clear, it's functionally the same as what I did: two separate but more-or-less identical copies of program material running side-by-side, with (at least) one of them being modulated faster and slower so that the cancellations and reinforcements create the familiar effect. The exception is that I used the computer to modulate the speed/pitch of one signal, which is not at all the same as using a "flanger" plug-in or effect in the computer. Also, since I modulated only one copy, my example strictly speaking should be called "to-zero' and not "thru-zero" flanging. Practically speaking, "to-zero" is all that's really necessary if you think about it.

Quoth the Antman:
Quote:
However, being a rock guy, I do really like Juergen's. Rock and subtle are usually two words you don't see together.

I have to agree with you. My example is admittedly lo-fi as well as rather bland I think. My touchstone for flanging would have to be the intro guitar to Hendrix's "House Burning Down." The intensity there may have a lot to do with the fuzzy guitar harmonics. . . .


Quoth the Stites:
Quote:
Loved the track!

Thanks!

Quoth the Haible
Quote:
I think that cancellation point isn't all that interesting. It's the way that point is approached, and left again, that matters.

I agree, this seems the core of it. Some unique waveform is needed that simulates what Mr. Tape-Op does based on what he hears when his fingers are on the reels. Maybe something like a very squashed, dome-topped sine wave, or maybe a squarewave with a lot of lag (don't know the correct term for this). In any case, an approach that goes slower as it gets closer, but then quickly leaves before the TZ point wears out its welcome. Wink

Joe
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3hBJSX692I&mode=related&search=

Mr Puretube himself performs his TZF!
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have TZF on a dual BBD board I built around 1988. It uses 2 MN 3004. I'll drum up a sample over the weekend, I would have done this evening but my dear wife complained of the noise, so I put it through headphones. Then she started booking a holiday and I couldn't hear her talking to me - I can't win!!!
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para



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you know i can't find a single write up that says flanging uses an inverted copy to mod against the source, i've never inverted one side myself when achieving the effect and the idea mentioned earlier that tape decks invert a signal during a recording and then don’t reinvert it is bizarre and i've never experience that either? i can't imagine this happening on any deck not even consumer models. i was thinking that your lfo was just going off the charts but that empty peak of your lfo is complete cancellation with your inverted signal isn't it? the two signals should matchup at one point and just be normal and then the natural phase differences created by the time shifts are what creates the effect.


i've already lost interest but that was bugging me so i figured i'd speak up.


steven
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From the newsgroup rec.audio.pro:

Quote:
Joe Kramer wrote:
I've noticed this many times with many recorders, that program material is flipped 180 degrees out-of-phase when it comes back from the tape as compared to the source. Is there a technical reason an analog recorder is made this way, or is it more a convention like XLR pin wiring? How universal among tape recorders is this?

Graham replied:
Actually if the electronics path is all 'in phase', the recovered audio will be inverted. That's because the magnetic induction on replay has a minus (negative) term in it. That's basic physics.


That answer works for me.

At any rate, inverted, perverted, tied, dyed, and laid to the side, I hope we can all put a good flanger together here. Smile

Regards,
Joe
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jurgen, another useful feature of the LFO associated with the flanger would be to stop it, then restart it from where it stopped.
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Fernando



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
It's not the one I had in mind - I was thinking about the TDA1022.
You could get it cheap from Reichelt in Germany, but I just noticed that they don't offer it anymore, so not telling seems pointless now. :cry:
(...)
JH.


Last time I checked I could buy TDA1022 locally. I'll check during the week (price and stock)
The only store that have a web site is listing it at 5,5 euro + 16% tax, but I have to look at the other suppliers.

Scott, that demo link is amazing!
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para



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i give up. i've never really given any of this much thought i've always just done it. i guess if i ran into anything i didn't like i would have fixed it right then and moved on. and i've never been a fan of really strong flange anyway just slow and mellow stuff. i'm shutting up now and going back to work (and waiting for my Tau to get here). best of luck -


steven
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Fernando



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

antman49443 wrote:
Germaniac, Juergen,

both clips are very nice! Germaniac's 'real' flange definitely has a more 'subtle' (...).


I guess that's because there is no feedback (wich can be positive or negative for further nuances)
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para



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

in response to PM's i want to jump back in here and say that no i was not offended by anyone or anything said, rather i was of the impression i was the offensive one and that i was pushing things in the wrong direction so i just decided not to waste anyone's time and shut my mouth.

please don’t let my ignorance impede progress.


steven
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Steven, your comments are always most welcome. It's a pleasure to follow this site and I find what everybody has to say interesting. It's always easy to be misunderstood with only contact by words. Don't worry, I think folks here are as friendly as you can get, unlike some over at Prodigy Pro who have unpleasant hangups!

Keep posting
Stephen

1st time I've seen a posting with both spellings of our name!
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Adding my 2 cents:

I love the direction in which this thread is going - TZF is an interesting topic.

BTW, if you read the titele of the thread, it was not (yet) about me making a Flanger board and asking who's interested - it was only about BBD chip suggestions *if* I'd do such a thing. Laughing

Love the TZF discussion; keep posting interesting sound samples if you like!

JH.

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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My wife will be out this afternoon, so I can play LOUD and will try to record a TZF sample from my WEM Hyperflanger board - which isn't in my rack at the moment, so I'll have to remember where I put it !
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