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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
If I'd consider making a pcb for a flanger ...
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

StephenGiles wrote:
Steven, your comments are always most welcome. It's a pleasure to follow this site and I find what everybody has to say interesting.

Keep posting


DITTO! Very Happy
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:

The tap point was just after the expanders and before the de-emphasis. I tried setting up a separate de-emphasis for that signal, but thought at the time it dulled it too much, so left it as it was. Hence, it's always a bit trebly.


Nice sounds! I think the treble emphasis is a distinct benefit.

Scott Stites wrote:
Be that as it may, I really liked the how the sweep worked out for TZF. Because the Dim C modulates both delay lines equally but anti-phase, the zero point can be met in the middle of the sweep (in this case, the modulation depth determines at what point in the sweep TZF occurs, if at all).


Also good, possibly because of the two BBDs, for the fact that the output signal is a mixture of two signals that are processed for exactly the same frequency and dynamic content, as opposed to dry against wet, or two different types of delay lines.

And that Marshall Time Modulator is pretty wild. Even on the demo, you can tell the fidelity is top-notch. I'd sure like one of those Marshall Tape Eliminators too! Thanks for posting those links!

Joe
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Steven,

I didn't see anything untoward in your posts - I appreciated reading them. One advantage of a forum like this is it enables input from all points of view, and many can learn from reading it. I hope no one ever feels timid or reticent about expressing a doubt, opinion, suggestion or observation on this forum - that kind of stuff is the fertilizer of creativity. In fact, most of my posts could be considered fertilizer....no....wait.....scratch that last line Very Happy

Cheers,
Scott

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para



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well i wasn't looking for reassurance or anything but i appreciate all of your comments. i'm constantly holding my tongue in fear of offending others because more often then not i look for the fastest way to get a point across rather then the nicest way. character flaw


as for the inversion issue it really just comes down to taste at this point so its doesn't matter, perhaps just having a switch between the two will increase the range of use though. but i wanted the step back to PM's and say that the only tape consoles i've ever heard of having anything near an "inversion" issue are older Japanese brands like Otari that have their hot and cold XLR pins reversed and the "fix" for this has always been to just make cables or hit the phase button and flip them back and then its forgotten. considering that you would often find yourself A/B-ing back and forth between mixes and reference tapes having an inverted output (or input) is just a bad design choice. i'm sure they had their reasons but they are lost on me.

as for the comment in the quote earlier from Graham ? whoever?, he only stated that on a basic physics level that is how printing to and reading from tape works. he didn’t actually say why its done that way. i’d imagine the conversation goes on though? i’d like to see what else is said after that to help me make sense out of this. i could guess and say that the output path was made that way to keep it as clean and pure as possible but there are already input amps possibly coloring the sound so that doesn’t seem likely.


steven
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shouldn't it be possible to make something like the time modulator with ccd ic's?
I think ccd's now the days are easy avaible for a good price due the market of camera's etc.
Or maybe i'm just wrong about this.

There was an ETI design with a CCD phaser / flanger acording to this website.

http://www.irational.org/marcus/music/instruments.php
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:
as for the inversion issue


I think inverted and non-inverted mix all have their own merits.
But for cancellation, you need signal inversion.
No time delay can achieve cancellation with a non-inverted mix. (Of course it can, for special cases, simple waveforms; but not for the general case of an arbitrary input signal.)

JH.

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para



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

100 percent cancellation no, but enough cancellation of frequencies to achieve a nice sounding flange ( modulated combfilter ). and i personally don't like or use flange with 100% cancellation so this is where i'm coming from and why i made the suggestion of having it switchable. the overbearing jet engine thing has just never sounded good to me ( usually sounds radically bad and out of place in most cases through out history ). if i ever use flange its just to add a bit of alteration to things not achieve an "effect" you know. i'd rather dig into how the source sound was made and use the basics to change it, not just slap some crazy overused thing on top of it. again this is all just a matter of taste, so take it for what its worth, which isn’t much and certainly not worth arguing about.


steven
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:
100 percent cancellation no, but enough cancellation of frequencies to achieve a nice sounding flange ( modulated combfilter ). and i personally don't like or use flange with 100% cancellation so this is where i'm coming from and why i made the suggestion of having it switchable. the overbearing jet engine thing has just never sounded good to me ( usually sounds radically bad and out of place in most cases through out history ). if i ever use flange its just to add a bit of alteration to things not achieve an "effect" you know. i'd rather dig into how the source sound was made and use the basics to change it, not just slap some crazy overused thing on top of it. again this is all just a matter of taste, so take it for what its worth, which isn’t much and certainly not worth arguing about.


steven


I very much agree.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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para



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

good to hear...... urrr ahhh read.



so where are these plentiful ccd's you speak of mono? i've never worked with one. are they a pain to design with?
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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
Shouldn't it be possible to make something like the time modulator with ccd ic's?
...
There was an ETI design with a CCD phaser / flanger acording to this website.

http://www.irational.org/marcus/music/instruments.php


You can read there
"Due to the use of an analogue CCD (Charge Coupled Device) delay line based on the TDA1022 IC"
- that's exactly the chip, Jürgen wanted to use.

Anyway, thanks for this hint, I really didn't know that CCD's as optoelectronic devices are the same in principle.

I can hardly imagine that these optodevices work as a musical delay.
But - who knows - if you cover the window with a black sheet. Very Happy
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para



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=501

i guess $6.50 isn't that bad considering some of the others are around $15 each
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just did mention CCD because i am en ex time modulator owner.
And did google a bit for ccd in flangers.
But how and what is a bit to technical to me.
But i got a technican who fixes my stuff.
So i'll just await what Jurgen will come up with.
But it would be amzing cool if it would be in the line of the time modulator by Marshall.
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.4shared.com/file/20491740/5cc1118b/TZF.html

Very subtle, but the TZF is there. This is a 2 x MN3004 unit - very quiet considering there is no noise reduction!
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:

as for the comment in the quote earlier from Graham ? whoever?, he only stated that on a basic physics level that is how printing to and reading from tape works. he didn’t actually say why its done that way. i’d imagine the conversation goes on though? i’d like to see what else is said after that to help me make sense out of this.


Well, a good deal of the conversation consisted of me taking blows to the face and head for using the term "180 degrees out-of-phase" when apparently the proper term is POLARITY, not phase. The only really scientific answer I got about the actual question regarding why some machines (or at least my Tascam 122 MKIII) might invert polarity was Graham's. Here's a cherry-picking of other answers:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Quote:
. . . back when most of this gear was designed, nobody really
was concerned much about absolute phase. Combine that with the fact
that people were still arguing over whether pin 2 or 3 should be hot, and
you have a recipe for inadvertent phase inversion.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
Quote:
The output of a recorder can have either polarity (not phase); there is nothing inherent in any recording process that requires the polarity to match the original or be reversed.

Richard Crowley wrote:
Quote:
You can safely assume that analog equipment (recorders and
other kinds of equipment) from that era [the discovery of flanging] will have an output phase that is random compared to its input. If you care about it, you will need to measure each piece of equipment and either re-wire it,
or make cables that produce your desired phase/polarity.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Quote:
Well, when people started doing that [flanging] on Ampex 350s, it wasn't reversed in polarity. The 350 preserves phase, as does the 440. I can't speak for anyone's connection cabling, of course, or any other machines, and there were (and are) lots of sloppy cabling jobs.


Sorry for the off-topic bandwidth use. For anyone who wants to read the full thread (and have a front-row seat at my terminological pummeling), you can sign on to the newsgroup rec.audio.pro. I agree, the inverting/noninverting question is a matter of what one's goal is, and therefore a matter of taste. I brought up the subject at all more as a sort of entry in this Flanging Encyclopedia we seem to be collaborating on here. If I had it to say over, I would have said "SOME tape machines invert, etc," instead of MOST. Honest, I'm not totally FOS, I just seem like it sometimes. . . . Rolling Eyes

One more idea about flanging. Have you ever been standing in just the right spot somewhere outdoors and heard a jet soar overhead, or heard a perfect peal of thunder tearing open the sky? On a few occasions like these, I've heard some really hair-raising examples of natural flanging/comb-filtering. As intense as it was, to be sure there's no possibility of TOTAL cancellation there. Maybe worth pondering how to capture somewhat that sound from nature.

Joe

Last edited by germaniac on Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, and it's even better if you crouch down slowly then rise up slowly afterwards - jolly good exercise as well! We are under the stacking paths for both London Heathrow and Gatwick airports and the landing path for Biggin Hill so there's plenty of scope for dopplering!
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para



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the frequencies that create the combfilter would be bouncing off of some nearby structure (or even the ground) and based on its distance from it to your point in space, the material its made of, its size, shape, the humidity in the air and bunch of other variables it is then meeting, combining, adding and subtracting (phasing) out the different frequencies of the source sound where you are standing. if you move around like was suggested you change the time at which they are all intermingling and this is basically the same as you adjusting the delay setting in a hardware effect version. but the hardware is generally more “perfect” so the variables are removed for the most part. i personally like the odd variables, and things like this are why tape and the marshall, the tau and others all sound so great, they introduce slight variables and imperfections that other devices don’t have and as a result add their own little character. like covering that reflective surface with carpet or tile for example. you generally only notice this in the real world with things that are really loud near large surfaces but they happen constantly in every room off of every surface just at much quieter levels. treating surfaces and room to make the interactions of those standing waves is the basis for acoustic design, from massive cathedrals all the way down to a violin’s shape and material.

once you learn and grasp things like this mic placement takes on a whole new importance Smile


steven
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
Shouldn't it be possible to make something like the time modulator with ccd ic's?
I think ccd's now the days are easy avaible for a good price due the market of camera's etc.
Or maybe i'm just wrong about this.

There was an ETI design with a CCD phaser / flanger acording to this website.

http://www.irational.org/marcus/music/instruments.php


The ETI flanger was less than useless, the main problem was noise and badly clicking LFO I remember - best forgotten!
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah i just pointed to that one because it also used CCD as delay line.
Just like the Marshall Time Modulator.
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
Yeah i just pointed to that one because it also used CCD as delay line.
Just like the Marshall Time Modulator.


It used a TDA 1022
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wonder how much of the marshall's famous SNR is due to the noise reduction. DBX, wasn't it?
I think I remember DBX systems theoretically doubled the dynamic range.
I definitely remember a DIY project in the German Elrad magazine in the 1990's (or 80's?) that used a HighCom noise reduction around a BBD, and reported outstanding SNR figures.
In the Storm Tide Flanger, I used a noise reduction system derived from the ARP Quadra's phaser, and this is also very quiet. (It has a certain grainy-ness, which I love, but which I wouldn't call "clean" - but it's quiet.)

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

StephenGiles wrote:
Yes, and it's even better if you crouch down slowly then rise up slowly afterwards - jolly good exercise as well!


I guess you could call that the MANUAL control, and "soft-knee" too. Wink It doesn't get any more analog than that!

Nice TZF clip on that crunchy guitar too. Very "warm." Thanks!

Joe
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey JH,

According to the thread where the Time Modulator sample originated, it seems that quite a bit of the SNR was actually due to the use of DBX ICs.

Cheers,
Scott

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germaniac



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
I wonder how much of the marshall's famous SNR is due to the noise reduction. DBX, wasn't it?


There would be a lot to compare among generic companding with NE570/572, DBX Type I/Type II formats, and the methods you used for the Storm Tide. Nowadays, if one were to use the newer THAT chips, I think the general performance would be even better than previously possible with the older DBX chips.

Also, maybe an option to disable the noise reduction would be useful, since some are of the opinion that noise reduction takes a bit of oomph out of flanging sounds.

Joe
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

germaniac wrote:
StephenGiles wrote:
Yes, and it's even better if you crouch down slowly then rise up slowly afterwards - jolly good exercise as well!


I guess you could call that the MANUAL control, and "soft-knee" too. Wink It doesn't get any more analog than that!

Nice TZF clip on that crunchy guitar too. Very "warm." Thanks!

Joe


Thanks, in fact there is a crafty limiter on the input - LM13600 slung in the feedback path of an opamp. I want to try bypassing it in order to get a more grittier sound. I'll post the circuits if anyone is interested.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I bought a Dynacord TAM-19 Flanger today.

All that they say about it is true. Shocked
It sounds extremely soft, much warmer than the TAM-21 which I had a few years ago. Warmer than my Storm Tide, too; but not as extreme.

And it does some kind of thru-zero! Surprised

That is, the manual potentiometer has a center spot at 12 o'clock position, from which it modulates down in 1/x fashion on both sides. The delay time at center position is not that close to zero, though. But it sounds nice, nevertheless.

As a coincidence, the TAM-19 seems to exactly realize what I had suspected and voiced earlier in this thread, that the 1/x function on both sides of the (almost) zero point plays a crucial role, probably more than the approaching of zero itself.

In order not to confuse you, this does not produce the dramatic effect of real tape flanging or what the Tau phaser does! And yet, it's remarkably different from what you get with ordinary flangers.

I'll have to investigate this further ...

JH.

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