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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
If I'd consider making a pcb for a flanger ...
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: If I'd consider making a pcb for a flanger ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

... what BBD would you prefer?

I get quite a lot of requests for making pcbs for the Storm Tide flanger.

I can't do exactly that , for 3 reasons:

(1) It uses highly obsolete BBDs
(2) It's too close to Eventide
(3) I know a lot of things I'd do differently now.

But I'm (vaguely!) thinking about a "Son of Storm Tide" as a future pcb project.

If I'd do this, I'd obviously not use SAD1024s.

I have a favorite vintage BBD chip of which considerable stock is left, so I'd design it for this chip.
I'd want to have a fallback strategy in case this chip suddenly gets extinct, and so my plan would be to offer a pcb where you have a choice of two different BBD chips to solder in. (Similar as I did with the different transitor arrays on the tau phaser.)

Now, I know what BBD chip option #1 would be (I won't tell right now, for obvious reasons ...)

Please let me know what you'd prefer as option #2. (Should *not* be another vintage / extinct specimen, but one of the modern parts.)

Preferred length is 512 stages.

JH.

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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey JH,

I bet I know which BBD you're talking about Very Happy I've got four of those.

As for modern equivalents of 512 stage BBDs, I'm not sure there are any in current production.

Unless, of course, I'm quite mistaken, the only two places I know of that are manufacturing BBDs are Shanghai Belling and that Cool-Audio outfit (which I'm told is Behringer, but I couldn't say that definitively). It seems to me Belling is making equivalents to the MN3207 (1024 Stage) and MN3208 (2048 stage) while Cool-Audio is making equivalents to MN3207 (1024 stage) and MN3205 (4096 stage).

If I'm mistaken, this is one time I'd be overjoyed to be mistaken!

And what is with these guys always making the low voltage MN32XX all the time and ignoring the higher powered MN30XX variety, which I prefer?

I've got an idea maybe the lower voltage are more conducive to stompbox design.

Cheers,
Scott

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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have messed with flangers since 1977 - and still know little of the technical side! But I know a good flanger when I hear one.

1. Forget noise reduction because it tends to kill much of the good sounding grunge - or do you have something up your sleeve?

2. Thru zero flanging is a must, perhaps using an analog delay similar to STM's in the dry signal chain, http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/forums.html?topic=25168.0
so that a second BBD is not required with a second clock and all assciated problems.

3. Barberpole facility - bugger the additional circuitry!!! Laughing Laughing

4. Wet/dry signal mix control - possibly voltage controlled linked to input frequency or level. This is often omitted!

5. Choice of BBD - well, perhaps one with a much longer delay capabilty, which, if the clock was suitably buffered (Mike Irwin ADA Mods) could be possibly made to flange at both usec delay times - and up to say400msecs for echo. MN 3208 perhaps or similar - will that work at 15v?
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

StephenGiles wrote:

1. Forget noise reduction because it tends to kill much of the good sounding grunge - or do you have something up your sleeve?


The Storm Tide has noise reduction - ARP-Quadra-style; no simple NE570 stuff. I think it sounds impressive, but I haven't heard all the famous flangers of course. Guess I'll have to make a few sound samples.
JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

StephenGiles wrote:

2. Thru zero flanging is a must, perhaps using an analog delay similar to STM's in the dry signal chain, http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/forums.html?topic=25168.0
so that a second BBD is not required with a second clock and all assciated problems.


That's a brilliant idea, using a high order phase linear all pass filter!

There's no sense in me lifting that guy's idea and making competion to him, though. I haven't read the entire thread yet; does he plan to offer pcbs, too?

What I thought about (and what I did in the Storm Tide), is just a send/return jack that brakes the direct signal path, so you can include any other delay of your choice here. Being located in a separate metal enclosure, and placed in a meter distance, and powered by it's own PSU, will ceratinly help to avoid the usual interference problems.

But yes, that allpass filter idea is f*cking brilliant!

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It is a great idea. I was in Ecuador when that was posted in a small town called Banos, with a squiggle over the n! You could PM him through the DIY Stompbox site, he disappears for a while every so often. I'm sure that he wouldn't mind you including it on your board. He designed it and it died the death most good circuits do among fuzz box builders. I intend to breadboard it myself sometime.
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para



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

if you could include "thru zero" on the board i would definitely be interested


steven
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

StephenGiles wrote:
It is a great idea. I was in Ecuador when that was posted in a small town called Banos, with a squiggle over the n! You could PM him through the DIY Stompbox site, he disappears for a while every so often. I'm sure that he wouldn't mind you including it on your board. He designed it and it died the death most good circuits do among fuzz box builders. I intend to breadboard it myself sometime.

Is it just me, or are all the links to the schematics (except the first) dead? I played around a bit with higher order allpasses at one time, but never 7th order! I'd really like to see it.
Ian
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I see what you mean, I'll check on my hard drive after work, and if I don't have anything I'll contact STM in Chile.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
I played around a bit with higher order allpasses at one time, but never 7th order! I'd really like to see it.
Ian


I'm quite surprised to see so *few* filter stages for 500us of broad band delay. But then I read on and see it only works up to 6kHz.

The question is, how pronounced will the thru-zero effect be?

Are there sound samples for this? I'd love to get convinced that it works, but here's what worries me:

(1) Phase response
Full cancellation will occur when the two time domain signals are equal - or, if you look at it in the frequency domain, when *all* harmonics are excactly in 180deg (+ n * 360deg) phase shift.
If this isn't true above 6kHz, how will it sound? I guess the sound will "thin out" at the "zero" point, which may or may not sound close to a full cancellation.

(2) Amplitude response
In order to keep the number of filter stages low, you have to use 2-pole all pass filter blocks. Component tolerances will cause an amplitude error more easily than with 1-pole all pass filters. Even with 1% components everywhere, the overall amliture error will easily be more than 5%, and 5% amplitude difference will mean that the notch depth will be not more than 26dB. 10% amplitude error (that's less than 1dB error!) will already limit the notch depth to 20dB.
As in all Phasers and Flangers you will get *one* perfect notch by careful adjustment of wet and dry levels. But with an uneven frequency response in either path, all the other notches will be less prominent. *Unless* you have exactly the *same* uneven frequency response in both paths.

So it all comes down to how convincing that method *sounds* in the end.
From just looking at it and considering the theory, I expect the component tolerances to be a major problem here.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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psylux



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: If I'd consider making a pcb for a flanger ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

Now, I know what BBD chip option #1 would be (I won't tell right now, for obvious reasons ...)


Are you worried about a run on remaining stock? Just curious.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: If I'd consider making a pcb for a flanger ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

psylux wrote:
jhaible wrote:

Now, I know what BBD chip option #1 would be (I won't tell right now, for obvious reasons ...)


Are you worried about a run on remaining stock? Just curious.


Well it would be sad if people bought pcbs and couldn't populate them because the chips have gone ...

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey JH,

I'd definitely be "on board" for a flanger!

As for BBDs, another option might be the MN3009, of which the forum's very own Topp had a fairly plentiful supply for sale not long ago. Though the 3009 is only 256 stages ( about 12 mS), it's unique among the MN devices in that the frequency response is 14k, higher than other MN devices at roughly 10-12K; voltage noise is also very low, and S/N high. FWIW.

As the dynamic Mr. Barks--er, rather--Stites has pointed out, nobody seems to be making higher voltage BBDs presently, but places like Small Bear still have reasonable stock and prices on MN3007, et al.

Joe

PS: http://www.datasheet4u.com/html/M/N/3/MN3009_Panasonic.pdf.html

Last edited by germaniac on Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: If I'd consider making a pcb for a flanger ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Such a flanger pcb would be very nice for me too.

jhaible wrote:
Well it would be sad if people bought pcbs and couldn't populate them because the chips have gone ...


Well, so what do you plan to do ?
Do you plan to buy all your *favorite BBDs* and sell them with the pcb ?

But I like to buy some spare if I build a module with obsolete parts.
I don't want to throw away the complete module if one chip dies.

I wonder why no one mentions the MN3004 - may be everyone expect that this is you fav Very Happy
Who knows.

This list says that there are thousands of it.
But where ?
I'm not a pro, so I can't order from them - especially not only 2, 3 or 4 pieces.

One should start a big, big group-buy.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: If I'd consider making a pcb for a flanger ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Serenadi wrote:

Do you plan to buy all your *favorite BBDs* and sell them with the pcb ?


That's what I want to avoid.
Making PCBs and selling them is a big step for me already.

Quote:
I wonder why no one mentions the MN3004 - may be everyone expect that this is you fav Very Happy


It isn't; but it will make a good backup (2nd option) if there are plenty.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The favourite BBD is of course the SAD 1024, but not being Jesus Christ, I can't make my 5 go round!

But with the Mike Irwin clock buffer, they can all be made to clock up to frequencies almost producing Thru Zero Flanging

http://www.4shared.com/file/16577146/d77c8cd/ada.html

This is an "uncool" single chord on an electric guitar thru an ADA Flanger using SAD 1024 with buffered clock - powered by 2 old 9v batteries providing about 16 volts!
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: If I'd consider making a pcb for a flanger ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:


Well it would be sad if people bought pcbs and couldn't populate them because the chips have gone ...

JH.


Would it be possible to lay out this board to work with different BBD chips? I got the idea from the Doepfer 188-1 BBD module, which can be configured to work with different chips from the panasonic line... Anyway this might allow more people to build this module. Just a thought.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

StephenGiles wrote:
The favourite BBD is of course the SAD 1024,


It's not the one I had in mind - I was thinking about the TDA1022.
You could get it cheap from Reichelt in Germany, but I just noticed that they don't offer it anymore, so not telling seems pointless now. Crying or Very sad


Quote:
But with the Mike Irwin clock buffer, they can all be made to clock up to frequencies almost producing Thru Zero Flanging
http://www.4shared.com/file/16577146/d77c8cd/ada.html


That's a good sounding Flanger indeed.

JH.

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tomcat



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No need to worry, there are some other sources for the chips. Check pm.
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

In order to keep the number of filter stages low, you have to use 2-pole all pass filter blocks. Component tolerances will cause an amplitude error more easily than with 1-pole all pass filters. Even with 1% components everywhere, the overall amliture error will easily be more than 5%, and 5% amplitude difference will mean that the notch depth will be not more than 26dB.
JH.

Without the schematics it is hard to tell, but I thought he said his ultimate version used two cascaded 7th order filter sections.
Seems a bit odd that he had fancy Monte Carlo tolerance sensitivity calculations but no flanger simulations or sound clips.
Ian
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

He's probably a busy man! But these things need to be tried. The other well discussed method for TZF of course is to have two BBDs with opposite LFOs driving the clocks - with it's associated noise making qualities, although Puretube stated that with careful layout this can be minimised.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I made some Thru-Zero experiments last night with my (SAD1024-based) Storm Tide Flanger and a digital delay with short, fixed delay in the direct path.

I got a pretty good cancellation at the "zero" point, but all in all I don't think it's too convincing. In comparison, the Tau (which is a phaser, and doesn't _really_ go thru zero), sounds more pleasant to me.
I presume this has to to with the modulation waveform, i. e. the way how the "zero" point is approached, crossed, and left.
With two tape machines, that's linear in time, or 1/x function in frequency.
When the reference point (delay of dry signal) is some finite, if small, value, what would the modulation shape have to look like?
You'd need a pole in your CV control law not at zero, but precisely at that point where the variable clock approaches the delay time that equals the fixed delay.

I can post the samples of my experiments tonight if you like, but I think the thru zero part is the least convincing of the demo.

JH.

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para



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

in the most general situation the fixed or reference "delayed" split is not modulated or resonant at all. its just set in time to a point that the modulated and regen'ed delay can cross easily. of course having both modulate can yield cool effects but its not really necessary, i'd just invert the mod osc for a good general result and have an external input for other results. as for mod shape, sine would be best but anything could work.


steven
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Orwell said it's the duty of reasonable men to restate the obvious, so here goes:

Most tape recorders have the strange quirk of recording signals phase-inverted from the source. Since flanging was originally implemented using "identical" program material mixed together from two separate tape decks, in was inevitable that material copied from one deck to another was inverted from the "original." An attempt to mimic the "classic" intense-sounding thru-zero flanging might require anti-phase audio signals.

Sorry if that's too obvious, but FWIW. Probably better to just go listen to some of Orwell's awesome flanging tones, which pretty much speak for themselves. . . . Smile

Last edited by germaniac on Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I was thinking about the TDA1022.


I knew it! Very Happy Mainly because that's what you used X4 in your Dim D.

I inject the following, not to derail the thread, but mainly because it seems so timely to these ideas from JH. And, in case you guys have never heard it, I figure you'd all get as big a kick out of it as I did. It's a link I picked up off of Matrix Synth, and something I've always wanted to hear myself. It's Stephen St. Croix's demo of the Marshall Time Modulator, which to me is the holy grail of time based modulators (warning, it's like 19 MB).

http://dkse.net/radio/St.Croix_MTM.mp3

It came from this thread on the Prosound Forum:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/forums.html/t/18303/7816/

Now, if JH could get hold of a stash of CCDs.....

Cheers,
Scott

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