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Apple/Mac: The platform of choice for producers far and wide
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:54 pm    Post subject: Apple/Mac: The platform of choice for producers far and wide Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The renegade Macintosh computer has long held a strong place in the heart of the audio community. With probably more third-party apps for music and audio available on the platform than any other subject area, the Mac is well designed to handle the processing of audio and MIDI data.

http://www.audiohead.net/products/apple/

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

especially in OS 9 ..heheh
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sudden wrote:
especially in OS 9 ..heheh

I stopped using OS9 one year and a half ago and I do not miss it..heheh Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well.. I agree with OS X being a cool platform for audio and video.. but there are pretty decent wintel options around too.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I now have both Windoze and MacIntrash. Twisted Evil

I haven't used the OSX system for much more than G2 testing, but the window manager is nothing better than XP, IMHO. I don't see what the big attraction for Apple is. With all the religious fanaticism about Macs, I was expecting to find something significantly better. What am I missing?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

altho i have not used XP, I have found all other version of windows to be my nightmare incarnate...


too much to list....

first of all windows users should be fair to themselves and not even try and compare macs/pc..like comparing a Chevy Astro with a hand-built mercedes-benz

macs work..windows..well windows is a walking DOS based trojan heaven...mediocrity for the masses...too many weaknesses and holes and compromises and copies of great ideas..and the error messages..

everything is illegal..

it goes deeper tho..a philosophical arguement

i support mac also, because i cannot support microsoft...


but hey , windows is cheap....

yes..very

bottom line is, the reasons for producers and filmakers [and rush limbaugh ] Shocked choose mac is because they can actually get the job done without all the low-level disk and OS interruptions, theCPU's are the fastest, the OS is ultra stable.

.the mac os frees up the artist to concentrate on the work and not tweak the IRQ..or download the latest 'patch' from the genuis's at microsoft..



forget about it.....

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and..btw..i am not a 'religious' mac user..

i just know what works and i go with that...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
With all the religious fanaticism about Macs, I was expecting to find something significantly better. What am I missing?

only a single thing: it works Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well... better... hmm.. at least different.. I guess it can take some time to get to know the mac.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm still new to this Mac world, but like the difference between a Chevy and a Mercedes Benz, it has a lot to do with with taste and brand identification. I would not use Chevy and Mercedes as the analogy, but rather Chevy and Ford.

I don't think "It works" and "It's reliable" is all that relevant these days. I've had XP running for over a year and it has yet to crash, but I've had to reboot it, especially for software upgrades. The XP OS updates happen very much automatically, always without a glitch. I upgraded the MacOS too. It took it three tries to get happy, all three required a reboot.

I have Norton anti-virus running on both the OSX and XP machines. I've never had a single virus that Norton hasn't detected and eliminated on the XP system. Mac aren't 100% immune to viruses.

I expected that when I plugged in my Mac to my local network, it would figure it out and configure itself. It didn't. Network configuration is just about like XP. The Mac file browser isn't as nice as windows because it lacks the flat list. No big deal but I expected more, not less. Resizing windows is harder on the Mac too. It seems I can only grab a window at the lower right corner. Maybe there is some configuration I can change.

The included mail program is a toy. It won't allow POP and IMAP connections via SSL. No big thing, I can load Mozilla or some third party application, but I expected it would just work.

It's true that some things don't work as well on XP as on MacOS, like for instance, when I installed the G2 editor on the Mac, I didn't have to load the driver. On XP, I had to insert the CD and click once.

As for not wanting to support Micorsoft; didn't they bail Apple out and aren't they the majority share holder in Apple? When you buy Apple products, Microsoft still gets your money. If it wasn't for Bill Gates, Steve Jobs would probably be unemployed. To avoid the evil empires, and be philosophically pure, go with Linux. You won't have as many killer apps, but you'll be pure as the driven snow. And Linux knows what to do with a three button mouse. Wink

So, let me ask again, but rephrased to as to be less offensive; I expected to find something significantly better with OSX vs XP; what am I missing? Shocked

If there is no answer, that's fine - really.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Traditionally the mac has been a box equipped with all sorts of networking options. So networking was a big thing way back. The mac also early on got some fab tols like tretropsect from Dantz, which made it possible to mirror bootable disks over the network etc etc

macs also had the virtual desktop idea implemented from like early on.. just add displaycards and monitors and your desktop realestate will grow.. 3 monitors or more on a mac FX in 1990.. no probs..
The scsi interface on all macs was a great thing.

Another issue is that Apple let the old OS use diskvolumes in a very special way you could not do on a PC. The OS files were easy to fix if something died.. and virtually anything in the OS could be patched together ASAP in case something happened.

Some basic GUI methapors were implemented early on.. and those are kinda what you see in XP today.

You are using 10.2.8 and that one is acceptable, but it has issues in the GUI. 10.3 is far better.

Setting up networking on a mac is easy.. and you have easy access to more advanced settings. Another thing.. on a mac you can have unlimited number of network location settings.. something you will need 3rd party utilities for on XP.

Software? Try surfing the OS X sections at http://www.versiontracker.com

Fileserving?
Apple implemented their own AFP protocol over TCP/IP. Pretty good stuff.. and the old 9 breed of Appleshare servers could really make those files scream.

FIlehandling? A mac used to be affected by filefragmentation, but not anything like a PC. Handling very huge files on a mac used to be no big deal, but at times pretty messy on a PC. One serious problem with the old OS was that it actually had a pretty low limit on number of open files, but this got to be improved some and OS X has not this problem at all. The old OS was in fact a good one, but it did of course prove to be a dead end.

Many of APIs in the old OS were pretty smart and they allowed for very sensible ways to handle stuff like printing or remote volumes etc etc. Printing services now are a bit more .. well.. advanced.. you have Gimp in there too.. and some ideas are better implemented in OS X, but using these are not better as such for ordinary users.

ONe problem you actually see on your own is how slow the display is ifyou do not have a decent displaycard. OS X uses PDF as its graphics engine.. they call this technology for Quartz. Now they have started to push the CPU intense stuff into the displaycards. laptops like the iBook cannot quite deliver yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, Apple certainly deserves a lot of the great for stealing the great GUI concepts that Xerox developed long before Microsoft stole them from Apple. Wink

Quote:
You are using 10.2.8 and that one is acceptable, but it has issues in the GUI. 10.3 is far better.


Sounds good. How come the automatic update program doesn't do this for me, or even offer it as an option?

As of most of the other stuff, today this is all a wash. File sizes, speed, displays, networks, firewire, remote backup, audio/video drivers and remote access are not differentiators anymore.

I'd like to see Apple open up and sell the OS to run on cheaper platforms. This PowerBook is nice and light, but it's not ideal. There are other cheaper laptops on the market that are better some respects, like mouse and keyboard capability. The Power Book's battery life is very good, but I would guess the same could be said for competitors products as well.

Most of the better programs run on both platforms these days. I'd avoid using any program that didn't. Hmmm, better dump Sonar. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

10.3 has to be installed from CDs. It is a MAJOR overhaul.

Well.. you are actually doing the same.. when using Clavia gear.. and you are not demanding to have Clavia go software only.. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Well.. you are actually doing the same.. when using Clavia gear.. and you are not demanding to have Clavia go software only.. Very Happy


He he. Quite right. I've said, though, that I think the G2 is the last hardware synth I'll buy. I'd bet that in the future I'll be strictly sofware and running on a laptop - hopefully Linux for philosophical reasons. Twisted Evil

Well, this was a good discussion. Hope nobody got mad or upset.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would like to see more Linux audio apps... I am tired of the MS product though it has served me well. I have worked with Macs and there are issues with them too. I REALLY wish that Beos had taken off - from the limited information I had heard and read, it seemed like the answer for a lot of the problems being experienced on the other platforms.

But as for being being "pure" - isn't SCO saying that parts of the Linux code being circulated are their property?

And don't forget the Amiga gui - I think that one came out about the same time as the first Macs and from what I remember I liked it more (maybe because it was color?)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I run a video business on Windows 2000 Pro. The files can get quite massive. I have no problems or complaints. Now a days, I think it's just what you're used to. Windows. . .OS (whatever). . .they all seem to get the job done.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I used Win 2k for a long time - really stable platform. And XP has been as stable for me as well. I just wish MS would market a stripped down version - OS and GUI only so to speak..leave out the other "additives". I have not played with the latest Mac OS's - I don't know how much you can or need to remove from them to tweak them out.

I was having a nice chat with an M-audio rep and he uses an Apple lap top - real slick looking machine - very comfrotable to work with too. He was saying that the big difference between the two platforms is how they handle the data - the Apple streams the data where the wintel machine basically works with large chunks.. This might explain why an Apple machine with a slower processor will do the same job as a PC with a faster processor..the data still comes out the same though.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DES wrote:
I was having a nice chat with an M-audio rep and he uses an Apple lap top - real slick looking machine - very comfrotable to work with too. He was saying that the big difference between the two platforms is how they handle the data - the Apple streams the data where the wintel machine basically works with large chunks.. This might explain why an Apple machine with a slower processor will do the same job as a PC with a faster processor..the data still comes out the same though.

have you checked this one out Question
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-1932.html

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Every time I use a PC.. especially non DOS machines.. like XP boxes.. I am struck by how slow the desktop mode is.. sluggish.. It seems like this mode is extremely slow on any PC.. more so than an older version of OS X on a low end first generation iMac with almost no RAM.

BTW... the streaming data idea this dude has.. what is that about? If you check out the actual tech behind this, his comments makes little sense.. however.. there are certain differences.. but those are mainly BSD versus XP issues.. One Apple added thingie is the HFS+ filesystem.
A paradox is that the actual tech specs for modern PCs all are pretty good and seemingly slightly more high end than on a mac.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Every time I use a PC.. especially non DOS machines.. like XP boxes.. I am struck by how slow the desktop mode is.. sluggish..


A lot has to do with which graphics cards you have. Some PCs have cheap graphics chips on their motherboards. You'd be amazed at the improvement a good graphics card makes.

Think about it, the serious gamers who want realtime 3D rendering of amazing details use PCs. It used to be that all graphics designers used Apple. Not so anymore. Apple/PC is optional now for everyone.

elektro80 wrote:
A paradox is that the actual tech specs for modern PCs all are pretty good and seemingly slightly more high end than on a mac.


It's not a paradox, it's a fact of economic life. The "PC" has more than 10 X the market. There are two huge IC companies making processors for the PC; only one makes Apple's chips. There a many more making motherboard chip sets. That means better, faster and cheaper. You can not make a chip less expensive unless you have huge volumes. Sun is succumbing to this now that 64 bit PC architecture is arriving and their bread and butter applications (mostly scientific and engineering) are ported to Linux. The cost of supporting their SPARC architecture is too big a burden. Sun is no longer a leader in the price/performance metric, so they are losing market share. The same for Silicon Graphics, they just can't keep up with the development of the "PC" platform. Apple rode the Motorola processors and jumped to the IBM Power PC. Apple can't bring out a G5 laptop for another year. The development costs are astronomical.
Prediction: it is just a matter of time before they abandon the Power PC chip.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

all that said..

sure, nowadays some of the critical technical issues may be on par with each other[altho i am not at all convinced by the numbers], there is still a big difference betyween Mac and PC

it may be hard to put my finger on..but it maybe 'feel' or 'vibe'

PC's give me a bad vibe..and add to that the serious problems i have had getting any siginificant work done on a PC, or even working with another person using PC's..it just never works

it's the 'spirit' of the Windows OS that seems negative and restrictive..

whereas Mac is 'optimistic' for the user...always bending over backwards to make our ideas work

tech stats aside..like any instrument, intention is important...i think wintel's intention is to make the cheapest most profitble box that kinda gets the job done..and this shows up in the 'spirit' of it all..

kinda cheesey

whereas apple appears to me to be in a co-operative relationship with the user striving for excellence and useability...freedom..artistic expression...

appe has form and function. it's a work of art in itself and was designed for artists and scientists

microsoft is a mediocre mass marketed business computer designed to need repairs/and upgrades tocreate a whole new industry - 'The microsoft certified engineer'...and like ford and chevy etc, the 'repairs' and 'upgrades' ar essential and most profitable parts of the industry


but, hey if people want to save some money or defend the lowest common OS denominator, that is fine

but please do not equate the two OS...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
"I took the road less traveled by, and that has made all the difference."
(Robert Frost) The Road Not Taken

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paul aka sudden wrote:

microsoft is a mediocre mass marketed business computer designed to need repairs/and upgrades tocreate a whole new industry - 'The microsoft certified engineer'...and like ford and chevy etc, the 'repairs' and 'upgrades' ar essential and most profitable parts of the industry


Better see: http://www.asia.apple.com/training/appletrak/

paul aka sudden wrote:
PC's give me a bad vibe..and add to that the serious problems i have had getting any siginificant work done on a PC, or even working with another person using PC's..it just never works

it's the 'spirit' of the Windows OS that seems negative and restrictive..

whereas Mac is 'optimistic' for the user...always bending over backwards to make our ideas work


I can buy your liking Macs better for spiritual reasons. In matters of faith, there is no argument. Don't know why the term "religious" is offensive though. Laughing

For spiritual reasons, I am for Linux. For practical reasons, I have one of everything. "Love the one you're with."

Peace!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc..you are wise... salut

i guess i do go a little overboard..maybe a little 'religious'..

and ultimately i just hope all artists have the tools they need to fulfill their goals

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
BTW... the streaming data idea this dude has.. what is that about? If you check out the actual tech behind this, his comments makes little sense.. however.. there are certain differences.. but those are mainly BSD versus XP issues.. One Apple added thingie is the HFS+ filesystem.
A paradox is that the actual tech specs for modern PCs all are pretty good and seemingly slightly more high end than on a mac.

"Streaming" is probably the wrong word. Basically it came down to how the Motorola and Intel cpu's and their bios' handled data. The way the Intel handled the data was in blocks and because of that it needed more speed to process the data (not only the math on the data but shuffling it in and out). This is also one reason why the early Wintel machine had problems with streaming data like video and audio - they were not designed to do that.. Motorolas were slow and steady - Intel fast and jerky.. Now it's not a big deal - the end result is what matters and both platforms do it quite well.

The drive format definitely makes a big difference and Apple has in the past had very good disk performance - partly I would reason to compliment the slower cpu speeds resulting in very good over-all system performance.

Of course the BIGGEST problem with speed on either system is the programming slop... both in the OS's and especially in the applications. I think one major reason that the Windows programs work the way they do is because the OS "allows" sloppy programming by design. If you get a program that is coded in assembler and run it on either machine - WOW! it will fly!
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