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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
CE-1 clone ?
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The Alison Project



Joined: Jul 21, 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
It wouldn't make sense to buy a PCB if you can have the whole thing for almost the same price ...


I hope I speak for most people here when I say I would rather own the PCB than a Behringer clone at the same price.

Great to hear the CE-1 is still in the mix as well.

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah i rather have a pcb to instead of a behringer clone.
I think the behringer ones are digital emulations anyway.
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Friends,

Just chiming in that I'd be game for a Dimension PCB as well. . . . Very Happy

gavgomad wrote:
To tide me over, I have my CE-300, which is very nice, but doesn't seem to have quite the same sound as a Dimension D....

Sorry for being so severely OT, but boy, I'll say! I recently got hold of one of these after looking at the circuit, thinking it had all the makings of a DIM C/D. Not even close! In fact, I found the unit (at least mine) to have some major problems. Just a short list: DC on the power pins of the BBD and clock chips fluctuated by more than a volt in sync with the LFO (!), and it seemed to me the LFO sweep was WAY off-center giving a sort of pitch-warp sound at higher DEPTH settings, etc. I did of lot of tweaking to center the LFO sweep and added a lot of PS decoupling to clean up the fluctuations. It sounds okay now, rather subtle. It's not as ethereal as my Dim C pedal, and I've never used a real DIM D, so I can't compare. Anyway, I thought of starting a thread about it here, but figured there'd eventually be a real DIM D project so it wouldn't be of much long-term interest. . . .

Regards,
Joe
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nikolo



Joined: Dec 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all,

Is someone tried the clone and a CE-1 : chorus ensemble retro sonic ?

i would like to know if its the "same" effect or not ?

for instance i only test the originals CE-1 (sorry)

Laughing
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kokoon



Joined: Jan 09, 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'm pretty sure the behringer clone is digital. and i too would totally prefer a PCB for dimension d clone over a behringer "clone".
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
Yeah i rather have a pcb to instead of a behringer clone.
I think the behringer ones are digital emulations anyway.


Out of curiosity, I just bought a Behringer Chorus Space C.

It sounds nice - I haven't made any A/B test with my old Dimension Clone, though.

It overloads easily on my CS-80. No compander, maybe?

Opened it. There's a lot of SMD stuff, and four DIP8 chip with familiar numbers: two 3207, and two 3102. No 570s, though. Two trimpots near the BBD chips. It's possible that one of the SMD chips is a Behringer compander chip - or maybe it has no compander. Definitely analogue signal processing.

JH.

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kokoon



Joined: Jan 09, 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow, this is great news! is it very noisy though? is the clock frequency audible? how low does the LPF cut?
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para



Joined: Oct 16, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah i'd love to hear a real world review of the Space C. they can be had for less then $40


steven
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:
yeah i'd love to hear a real world review of the Space C. they can be had for less then $40


steven


Well, I don't have the time to do any SNR or clock feedthru tests.
But I played my CS-80 thru the Behringer Chorus Space C and thur my Dimension Clone, so I had a direct A/B comparison.

My impression is that (asuming my Dimension Clone is close to the original Dimension D - which is not a given, BTW!) the Behringer has a broader, more intensive, less suble effect. Like starting from the Dimension D and going halfway to Juno 6, if you know what I mean.
Actually, I like the effect, even if it's not really a Dim D emulation. (In fact, I think of making something like a Juno Chorus PCB, too.)

Anyway, hear for yourself:

The mp3 is me playing along on the CS-80, with a ltlle bit of ambience set with Quantec and D-Two, and the chorus effect switched in that order:

1. No Chorus / 2. JH Dimension Clone / 3. No Chorus / 4. Behringer Space C / 5. No Chorus

(I probably won't leave the sample online for long, to free the web space again.)

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)

Last edited by jhaible on Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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para



Joined: Oct 16, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oh i wasn't expecting you to do any serious testing. i was fairly confident that i can trust your ears Very Happy

i see what you mean but i still like it, hard to make a cs80 sound bad though


steven
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gavgomad



Joined: Jan 29, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the comparison! You can definitely hear a lot more "wash" with the Behringer.... Reminds me how subtle the Dimension D is, and how much richness and power that such a subtle approach really has! Wink

I too must admit, particularly for the money, the sound of the Behringer is surprisingly good! Not a replacement for a Dim D, but impressive nonetheless!

Gav.
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kokoon



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this actually sounds very nice! what mode was that?

i don't think it's supposed to be a dim-D emulation, probably more dim-C?

anyway, i'm mirroring the sample (if that's okay with you JH): http://www.dontlisten.com/samples/jh_cs80_dimension_test_199.mp3
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kokoon wrote:
this actually sounds very nice! what mode was that?

i don't think it's supposed to be a dim-D emulation, probably more dim-C?

anyway, i'm mirroring the sample (if that's okay with you JH): http://www.dontlisten.com/samples/jh_cs80_dimension_test_199.mp3


That's Mode 2.

Thanks for hosting the file.

Btw, the Behringer has 4 buttons which are not interlocking - i.e., 1st one isn't released when you press a second one.

Jh.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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23isgood



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great demo. They both sound very good, though they sound almost the same. The Behringer sounds slightly richer, or deeper. Im sorry to say that im just going to buy the Behringer. It only cost $30.00! A JH clone would cost a lot more to build, for basically the same sound. The pcb alone could cost $30.00. Though all of your projects are of the top most quality in sound and construction, and your efforts are greatly appreciated, I think you should channel your efforts into another project.

pete

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v8pete



Joined: Jan 27, 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's astonishing how Behringer can actually produce a really good little pedal for that kind of money - in the UK I've seen it as low as £18 ie. about the same as five pints of lager would cost you in an Indian restaurant! The sound comparison is really informative - I still absolutely adore the sound of the Dim D (Jurgen's clone sounds pretty much identical to the real thing by my ears). Whilst I do believe that it looks like the chorus market may be rather 'sewn up' by the likes of Behringer etc for many users, I think that there is absolutely a market for something that perhaps could start off with a really true "Dim D" type sound, but could also produce the more 'synthetic' chorus types as well (and some additional odd/very odd variations on a theme in between perhaps?).

Just as a general question to Jurgen - I was wondering if you'd ever built or have thought about building a 'tube-sound' (or indeed tube-based) overdrive effects unit? - the kind of thing with which you could use to add a bit of bite to the Rhodes piano sounds as well as Hammomnds etc, not to mention the good old synth lead!

Pete.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v8pete wrote:

Just as a general question to Jurgen - I was wondering if you'd ever built or have thought about building a 'tube-sound' (or indeed tube-based) overdrive effects unit? - the kind of thing with which you could use to add a bit of bite to the Rhodes piano sounds as well as Hammomnds etc, not to mention the good old synth lead!
Pete.


I have a few ideas. Smile

I'm adding bite to my Wurlitzer with the combination of compressor and expander of a Korg Polysix's effect section (with the effects being turned off). It really gives a precence to th esignal without sounding too distorted. It's LM13600-based and noisy - I plan to make a redesign with discrete OTAs some time.

I've never been fond of preamp-tubes-only based distortion boxes. OTOH, a triode differerential amp built from a remote-cutoff tube like the 6BC8, driving a UTC A19 transformer wired backwards (Urei 175 configuration!) makes a wonderful smooth overdrive sound, that can also be varied with the diff-amp's common mode voltage.

JH.

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v8pete



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jurgen - I have to say that when it comes to all things synth/effects, that you are indeed THE MAN ! Smile Even though I have an EE degree I'd never heard of a remote cutoff tube before! - suppose that's what comes of being part of the op-amp generation Wink I'm rather aware that we're getting a bit off-topic on what was originally your Chorus thread, but having never seen the topology of the Urei 175 before (I've just spent a few hours googling it now...) i'd be really intreagued as to what it can be made to sound like when that type of circuit is configured to produce an intentional 'overdrive' sound (got to be a bit careful with the wording here, as 'overdrive' often means a lot of different things to different people). Is the sound a function mainly of the AGC stage itself, or is it more a combination of that particular method of controlling gain plus the usual compressor action?
I'd also be the first to agree that the ubiquitous 12AX7 based 'overdrive' boxes, whith a few simple 'bypassed cathode' stages wired in series have never impressed me either - I had an ADA unit a few years back to try and liven up my Hammond sound a bit, but it really wasn't even as good as the digital distortion emulation to be found in my Hammond clone (Nord Electro II) - so back onto Ebay it went! I'd certainly welcome any more info you might be able to share with us on the subject of tube-based limiters ! - and it goes without saying in my case that should you ever commence a JH project in this area, I'd be customer #1,2,3,4... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
Pete.

PS - off to post some more thoughts on your new Dynacord thread!
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v8pete wrote:
Even though I have an EE degree I'd never heard of a remote cutoff tube before!


Same for me, until recently. And I'm no tube expert by any means. The guys who really know that stuff are at the prodigy-pro forum.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As for Dimension-type effects, there's also the option of the Boss CE-300, which goes for fairly cheap and can sound pretty good with a bit of modification:

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-168851.html&highlight=pss480+pad#168851

Smile

Regards,
Joe
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've decided to send the Behringer back.

Yes, it sounds good - not exactly like the Dim D, but really good on its own.

But the clipping drives me crazy.
Don't know for what kind of signal level this was created.

Also, the non-interlocking buttons are so stupid.
If you have pressed button 1 and then press button 2, button 1 is not released mechanically, but apparently it's released electrically: The sound switches to preset 2, but you still have button 1 in a position that hints on a function being active. (and pressing button 1 again, to release it mechanically, apparently doesn't change the sound)
Stupid.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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23isgood



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I guess you get what you paid for, and the Behringer is dirt cheap. So never mind what I said. Your version is worth it, especially if you incorporate some extra features not found in the original.

pete

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trey85stang



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I ran across this post on google... is this project still in teh works? Im digging aorund for info on building one of these as well... and it looks as though you guys makes runs of pcb boards so that would be cool Very Happy
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

trey85stang wrote:
I ran across this post on google... is this project still in teh works?


Which one? CE-1 or Dimension D?

Yes, I still plan to make a CE-1 clone, possibly with added features.

Dimension D: I'm waiting till June if that Dim D project on prodigy-pro is available. If not, I plan to offer a Dim D clone myself. Should go quickly then, as I already have built one for myself, some years ago.

If that other Dim D project does happen, I still consider making a "Dimension T" - that phaser-based rather than BBD-based subtle chorus device.

I also think about making a Juno-6 / Juno-60 style chorus as a standalone effect unit.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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trey85stang



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oops, the ce1... Im not even sure what a deminsion d is as when you guys started talking about that I got lost.

Im looking over the circuit of the ce1... I personally would like to cut out the vibrato.. but Im not too good with this ic stuff so I dont know if that could be done or not.
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trey85stang



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Since I was planning on attempting to build this... Ive started on a BOM.

http://trey85stang.googlepages.com/CE1-BOM.xls

The schematic has some dull entries (hard to read).. and the lack of a coherent resistor numbering scheme (perhaps multiple revisions?) on this schematic doesnt help in figuring out some of the resistor and capacitor numbers/values.

The R's are done as best as the schematic allows... Ill keep it updated with the other parts as I go through the schematic.
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