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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Solina or Onmi ensemble board?
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If I'd make a string chorus PCB, what kind of multi-BBD circuit would you prefer?
Solina style (also: Crumar Performer, Böhm Phasing Rotor, and others)
62%
 62%  [ 28 ]
ARP Omni style
13%
 13%  [ 6 ]
Elka Synthex 4 BBD circuit
11%
 11%  [ 5 ]
other (please name in thread)
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
I would want neither - it's old fashioned and overused, and if I need it, there are digital FX boxes
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 45

Author Message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

germaniac wrote:
Don Solaris wrote:
. . . i'm ordering two ensemble boards for some true stereo goodness.

So the stock Solina is not a stereo output device? Would it be possible to create non-inverted+dry, inverted+dry pseudo-stereo outputs with the Solina? If this is not possible with the existing PCB (I assume it's no longer in the drawing-board stage now) could it be modded afterwards? Anyone try this or have any idea whether it would be worthwhile?

Regards,
Joe


The stereo sample I've posted is very easy: Main output of board = Left, individual output 1 of board = Right.

There is nothing such as a dry signal in the solina. The output is "all wet" - a mix of the 3 BBD-delayed signals.

With a tiny output mixer you can make any mix you like. You could bring out the pre-BBD signals, filtered or unfiltered, too. (They are available on pins of the Mode switch connector.)

ETA: You could connect a 10k lin potentiometer between the pre-BBD signal and the main output for a wet/dry mix. The wiper of the pot is then your output. The impedance is 2.8kOhm or less at this point, so you don't need any additional active stages.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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germaniac



Joined: Aug 04, 2006
Posts: 200
Location: California
Audio files: 7

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
The stereo sample I've posted is very easy: Main output of board = Left, individual output 1 of board = Right.

There is nothing such as a dry signal in the solina. The output is "all wet" - a mix of the 3 BBD-delayed signals.

Okay, I guess I'm not clear on what's available at the outputs--I was assuming a dry signal from the individual output. So what is the output arrangement then?

jhaible wrote:

With a tiny output mixer you can make any mix you like. You could bring out the pre-BBD signals, filtered or unfiltered, too. (They are available on pins of the Mode switch connector.)

ETA: You could connect a 10k lin potentiometer between the pre-BBD signal and the main output for a wet/dry mix. The wiper of the pot is then your output. The impedance is 2.8kOhm or less at this point, so you don't need any additional active stages.

I'll keep this in mind--Thanks!

Joe
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

germaniac wrote:

Okay, I guess I'm not clear on what's available at the outputs--I was assuming a dry signal from the individual output. So what is the output arrangement then?


Topology is:

Input amp -> Filters/EQ -> BBDs (including their restauration filters)

Output 1, 2 and 3 are the direct output of each individual BBD (and restauration filter)

Main output is 1 + 2 + 3.

The Mode switch selects what goes *into* the BBDs. This can be either a 16kHz filtered signal (i.e. anti aliasing filter only), or the 12kHz filtered signal (as in Solina), or the equalized signal (3-band EQ). Naturally, you can get these filtered (but not chorused) signals from th epins of the Mode switch, if you want to bring them out.
All signals are capacitor-coupled, ground-referenced signals, which makes switching as click-free as possible.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Don Solaris



Joined: Oct 23, 2007
Posts: 12
Location: Jupiter8

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

germaniac wrote:

So the stock Solina is not a stereo output device?

AFAIK it is mono. But anyway, i decided not to go with two boards. Just spoke with the friend who has the real Solina and we both agreed there is no need for two boards. The ensemble effect is good as it is. And it is trivial later to "spread" the signal with some analog chorus (available as cheap as $60 such as Boss CE-300).
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Serenadi



Joined: Jul 03, 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don Solaris wrote:
And it is trivial later to "spread" the signal with some analog chorus (available as cheap as $60 such as Boss CE-300).


Shocked
You want to tread this sublimely sound with a cheap chorus ?

Very Happy

Of course, on many records you know from the 70s or 80s, the solina is reinforced with a phaser.
Can't wait to listen to the combination of Jürgens board with his Tau.

Another thing, I think of, is to add an polarizing mixer for the 3 outputs.
So maybe "1" minus "2" plus "3" on left channel, and "1" plus "2" minus "3" on right channel gives a nice stereobase.

Anyway, Jürgens board offers many ways of experiments. That's great.
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Don Solaris



Joined: Oct 23, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Serenadi wrote:
You want to tread this sublimely sound with a cheap chorus ?


"Cheap" refers to its current price, not to its sound - which is far from "cheap" on the Roland / Boss CE-300 analog chorus. My advice is to grab this thing before some big shot shows it, in his studio, and the price goes x 5 overnight. That's the way it usually went so far...


Quote:
many records you know from the 70s or 80s, the solina is reinforced with a phaser.

That is exactly why i already have the phaser Boss PH-3 that has classic 70's style deep phasing type of tone. EH Small Stone from 70's might be handy. If i don't fetch the pricey original i will go with the "russian copy".

Quote:
So maybe "1" minus "2" plus "3" on left channel, and "1" plus "2" minus "3" on right channel gives a nice stereobase.

There are many tricks, for example 180 deg phase offset, but the problem is once you put this track back to mono, the sound cancels itself.
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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don Solaris wrote:
Serenadi wrote:
You want to tread this sublimely sound with a cheap chorus ?


"Cheap" refers to its current price, not to its sound - which is far from "cheap" on the Roland / Boss CE-300 analog chorus.


Of course, you're right.
Had to put some Wink Wink Wink behind.

Don Solaris wrote:
There are many tricks, for example 180 deg phase offset, but the problem is once you put this track back to mono, the sound cancels itself.


Yes, always the problem with reversed phase.
But in my opinion I don't care about mono-compatibly.
I don't write hits for the radio, I write my music for people who are sitting comfortably at home, listening in stereo.
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Dave Kendall



Joined: May 26, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A trick I used years ago for stereo "width" used a couple of Klark Teknik DN27s. Any good multi-band graphic EQ would work, the more bands the better. A mono signal is sent to both units, and the bands are alternately set to full or minimum, with the opposite gain or cut for each frequency on the other unit. It sums to mono OK, and with only small amounts of cut/boost in the bass region, it was surprisingly less intrusive than you might think, probably as the bands from the 2 units partially cancel each other out.

Obviously it has an effect on the harmonic structure of a sound, it's not a transparent effect, but it worked well on keyboards and processed guitars as I recall.

cheers,
Dave
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germaniac



Joined: Aug 04, 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I use that stereo-izer trick all the time with the 30-band graphic EQ in my audio software (CoolEditPro). Works really well and sums to mono, as Dave said. Good for converting old mono cassette tapes into a more spacious pseudo-stereo, and also good for adding width to mono spring reverbs. Try it!

BTW, if I understand correctly, JH's 40-band string filter allows for odd and even bands to be split left and right, which is a similar concept.

Regards,
Joe
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

germaniac wrote:

BTW, if I understand correctly, JH's 40-band string filter allows for odd and even bands to be split left and right, which is a similar concept.


Yes, and string instrument emulation is a lot more convincing that way. It gives the impression of a wooden body where individual parts of it radiate different frequencies with different intensity, so the sound will hit your two ears with different intensity. That's more than just a "widening" of the stereo filed.

BTW, when I'll redesign that string filter and offer pcbs (early next year, if all goes as intended), I'll also make individual outputs available for each parial filter.
So everyone can decide whether to just use the simple (but effective) even/odd panning (with a variable stereo spread pot, of course), or connect a dedicated level & pan pot for each channel. This may sound like overkill, and certainly is, in most cases. But If you happen to get a lot of surplus potentiometers (or slider!), it may well be worth the effort.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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germaniac



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

BTW, when I'll redesign that string filter and offer pcbs (early next year, if all goes as intended), . . .

I for one am hoping all goes as intended, if not better! I love the sound of that string filter.

A hypothetical patch I can't wait to try out: saw waves-->Solina-->string filter panned slightly left/right.
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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

germaniac wrote:
I for one am hoping all goes as intended, if not better! I love the sound of that string filter.


You're not alone. Very Happy
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Spratty



Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Posts: 43
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm curious to know if there's any word about a group buy of TDA's still....

Spratty Wink
(You are passing another lurker)
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Don Solaris



Joined: Oct 23, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great! That store from where i "bought" TDA's refunded my VISA card. Apparently they have none left.

I think i will give up this project.....

sorry...
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Spratty



Joined: Oct 08, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I sent Joe an email a while ago but I haven't heard anything more about what's going on.

Anyone on the board know what the buzz is around TDA's at the moment?

I can understand your frustration Don. But I'm not sure it's time to give up yet (but I am optimistic by nature - need to be!). From looking around on the web I would suggest that there are probably quite a considerable amount of TDA1022's out there. I don't think every man and his dog looking for them is helping the cause though.

I'm personally hoping to pickup a few. I do have a few, but I have no easy way to test these things to be sure about them..

Spratty Wink
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Don Solaris



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I understand your point Spratty.

The problem is... its been two weeks since i started the search for TDA. And where ever i go, where i ever i look .... "sorry we are out".

So finally i find someone, i make an order, get everything confirmed, 24 hours passes and BOOM! they return me the money with another "sorry.....".

Crying or Very sad
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Dave Kendall



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi guys.

Don where are you? (apart from in the solar system Smile )
Dunno if it helps, but Cricklewood electronics had loads of 1022s in stock when I got some the other day. They actually have a guy on the end of the phone, who can check to see if they have any left.
There was still someone there just after 17:30 GMT when I phoned.
Telephone: 020-8452-0161 or 020-8450-0995
(drop the first 0 and add 44 for outside the UK)

It may be too expensive for USA guys due to the exchange rate, (£5 GBP each) but maybe not *too* bad for Spratty in Oz, or for Europeans?

Last I heard the [sdiy] group buy was awaiting actual ICs to see if it was a going proposition, and if they were properly functioning chips....

cheers,
Dave

Last edited by Dave Kendall on Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While you're all shopping for BBDs, I've made a list of the other components that go onto this board:

See update on
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/triple_chorus/triple_chorus.html

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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aardvark-mi



Joined: Oct 23, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello everyone!

I'm definately in the same boat as everyone else trying to find the TDA1022s. I had an order with small bear and got the following message "Apologies. Due to an unusual volume of requests, our supply of the TDA 1022 chip has been exhausted. It is an obsolete chip that we are not sure we will be able to restock."

After quite a bit of searching the best I could come up with was from Turbo Electronics for $15 each and a minimum order of 15 chips.

I tried Cricklewood and my shipping address is outside thier shipping area using thier cart system so I plan to give them a call and see if they'll ship to the US.

In the meantime has anyone found any other sources??? ANy word on a group buy?

BTW, my name is Al Wagner and I started my modular synth several years ago with MOTM. Some of you may have seen me on the MOTM yahoo list.. Now that my MOTM is 'completed' (yeah right, like that will ever happen!) I have been adding other more DIY modules (oakley, Blacet) to enhance my system. And now I would like to add this module!

Thanks,
Al
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Dave Kendall



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject:
Subject description: TDA 1022s in Germany
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Hi.

Another possible option- below is a copy + paste from the [sdiy] list from Joerg Schaaf...

Just received an answer. Instant delivery after payment is done . So it seems like, they have some on stock.Wink

>Just ordered some at
>http://www.degotech.de/de/dept_50.html
>5,45 Euro each
>I will keep you informed, whether they can really deliver - but from >what I can see so far, they are taking international orders as well.

>Joerg

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bambam



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi

I already have my TDA's but I do know of 15 of them here in australia that i can get if people are interested?

The price isn't the cheapest though Sad They are $14au each......i got them down from $21 each!

If anyone is interested let me know via a message how many you would be after. You will need to pay via paypal and postage would be approx $7au for delivery to the UK,US,Germany and France for example....this would cover up to 5 at least if not more.

If trying to calculate the price to you locally basically work on $1au being on par with $1us, the conversion rate is about $0.93au to $1us at the moment and climbing daily.

I know these aren't the best price but I know its getting hard to obtain them so figured i should offer it.

Brett
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julianw



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:25 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I placed an order with grandata for 6 @ £3.30 each last week and they have told me that they just shipped them today, so they do have them now and they are listed as available on their website. They ship international.

EDIT: Received them next day.

Last edited by julianw on Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Triple Chorus Order Countdown

All right - I think we should proceed to the next step soon.
I want you to get your Triple Chorus boards before Christmas, and that means it's time for me to place an order at the PCB factory.

My impression of the TDA1022 situation is that it's not as bad as some of you thought - right? I figure most of you have them by now, and the chances are good for the others that there will be new finds of this chip locally, so I *think* with a little trading and/or the proposed group orders everyone should be able to get the 3 chips sooner or later.

Nevertheless, I'll give you the opportunity to cancel your order now if you don't have the chips yet and don't want to take any chances. So despite of what was written at the bottom of the order form, you can cancel your order now - that is, before Tuesday 06.11.2007. When I have placed my order at the PCB house on Wednesday, I consider your orders as binding.
If you want to cancel your order, please use the same email adress and email alias that you used for sending the order form, and write
CANCEL my Triple Chorus order in the Subject line of the mail.

Also, if you haven't ordered anything yet, and still want to, send the order form to me till Tuesday 06.11.2007.

I understand that it takes some confidence to order PCBs if you don't have the chips in your hand already.
Personally, I have the confidence that eventually enough chips will show up, and I will make a few more boards than I get orders for, at my own risk. But don't rely on that. I got a lot of requests for Tau boards after the deadline, and we all were lucky that the PCB house made a lot more boards that I had ordered (I had to pay them - it's in the small print).
The only way you can be sure to get a board is when you order it now. Later, it's first come, first serve.

Looking forward to hear from you,

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I got my TDA's from that link to the shop in Argetine.
He was pretty fast with shipping and i paid with Western Union.
Took me a week to get them.
So i am ready for lift-off.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
I got my TDA's from that link to the shop in Argetine.
He was pretty fast with shipping and i paid with Western Union.
Took me a week to get them.
So i am ready for lift-off.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.


Laughing

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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