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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Solina or Onmi ensemble board?
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If I'd make a string chorus PCB, what kind of multi-BBD circuit would you prefer?
Solina style (also: Crumar Performer, Böhm Phasing Rotor, and others)
62%
 62%  [ 28 ]
ARP Omni style
13%
 13%  [ 6 ]
Elka Synthex 4 BBD circuit
11%
 11%  [ 5 ]
other (please name in thread)
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
I would want neither - it's old fashioned and overused, and if I need it, there are digital FX boxes
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 45

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Peake



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
I have official schematics for the TCA350-based Solina, and I have partial schematics of the TDA1022-based Solina that someone else has drawn from the circuit board, probably with some loose ends / question marks.


I'll check my Solina schemo to see if it's the TDA version. Bear with me, it may take a day or two. I'll be happy to scan it for the group and you if so.
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revtor



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

juno chorus noise and all.... although its a single BBD jobbie.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

revtor wrote:
juno chorus noise and all.... although its a single BBD jobbie.


My Juno 6 has a 2-BBD circuit.
I think 2-BBD was the standard for many Roland keyboards.
I remember cloning the MKS-30 chorus for what was to become the next Braintec product (anybody remember the company?), together with the MKS-80 Bass Boost and a phaser and ringmod it would have been the "Trancer". Smile

JH.

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revtor



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well then I stand corrected, haven't seen the schemos in a while... still a great example of how some analog chorus can really wake up a pretty basic synth. love it.
~Steve


"trancer" hahaha probably would have sold 1000's!! Smile

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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Ok, but does this mean it's close enough to the real Solina?
This is important; please all of you be honest with me, if it's not close enough just tell me so. Exclamation

What you hear in the demo is a TDA1022-based Solina clone ...


It's very hard to tell.
Because the basic sound of your sample is so different to the Solinas basic sound.

I'd vaguely say, your example sounds a little rough compared to Solina.
Not as dense, sophisticated, or subtile.

In the meantime, I've read about 182 stages of the TCA350, compared to the 512 stages which are in the TDA1022 - maybe thats the thing.

Maybe the Solinas LFOs are more complex (2 LFOs with different phase shifted outs mixed together, than the LFO of the Böhm.
Maybe that's the other thing.

@ peake :

Do you still have access to the modified Solina you talked about ?
If so, maybe you could run the rough sample from Jürgen thru the Solina modulator ?
That would be the closest way to compare.
Unfortunately, I have no time to open and modifiy my Solina at this moment.
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Peake



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No, I don't. Sorry... Hence my interest here!
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Serenadi wrote:

Because the basic sound of your sample is so different to the Solinas basic sound.

I'd vaguely say, your example sounds a little rough compared to Solina.
Not as dense, sophisticated, or subtile.

In the meantime, I've read about 182 stages of the TCA350, compared to the 512 stages which are in the TDA1022 - maybe thats the thing.

Maybe the Solinas LFOs are more complex (2 LFOs with different phase shifted outs mixed together, than the LFO of the Böhm.
Maybe that's the other thing.


Thanks - that means I'll make a closer comparison between the modulation oscillators and the clock oscillator control law scheme between the two.
As far as I can tell right now, without a deeper analysis, the Boehm certainly aims at the same modualtion waveforms, but uses an entirely different circuit . But with a little help of my friend PSpice I'll find out about the subtle differences. Smile
The long vs. short BBD won't make any difference - at least not if the adaption is done right. You'd either clock it higher, or simply live with a longer intial delay and reduce the modulation intensity accordingly. The initial delay ("latency" they'd call that nowadays, in a virtual version at least), would still be neglible for any sound remotely reminiscent of strings.

JH.

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Peake



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My Solina schematic shows the ORB33 for delay... I wonder what uses the TDA, that was tweaking my memory incorrectly...
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Norman Phay



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I voted for Solina, it seems to be a fairly obvious choice. I must admit to not being a big fan of the Omni, I always found it somewhat harsh.

Alternative would have been the VP330 ensemble.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
My Solina schematic shows the ORB33 for delay... I wonder what uses the TDA, that was tweaking my memory incorrectly...


ORB33 !
I remember that, now that you say it. (Never seen one, though.)
And yet, that partial schemo with the TDA1022s comes from a source that is very reliable ...
That would make 3 different versions then!

JH.

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Update

I've made some Spice simulations of the original Solina modulation circuit. Interesting stuff.

And I have an idea how to make this a more interesting project.

The board, as I see it now, will have two modes:

A "Solina" mode, and a "Dual BBD Stereo Chorus" mode.

In Solina mode, my goal is to give a perfect emulation of that single effect, as close to the original as possible. Trimpots, for fine adjustmet, as in the original, and the possibility to have a Stereo output, but that's it in that mode.

The Dual BBD Stereo Chorus mode will not be modelled after a specific synthesizer model (they are all slightly different), but it will be two BBDs for true stereo processing, with inverted modulation from a single LFO. You'll be able to set the modulation Rate and Depth to your choice. Maybe I'll add some filters / crossovers / cross coupling ... we'll see.

It will take some time before this will be available (I plan to make the Frequency Shifter first). But it would be a good idea to buy TDA1022s
now, if you plan to buy such a board from me in a few months.
You'll need 3 (three) TDA1022s per board for this project.

If you're seriously interested, please send me a mail:

my adress, mis-spelled for the robots:
j-h-a-i--b--l--e--At--d/e/b/i//t/el///dot//n/e//t
(I had to do that, because since I last posted my real email adress here I get 50 extra spam mails per day.)

Subject line:
"Solina / Dual BBD Stereo Chorus board: I'm interested"

The price will be similar as with the Tau Phaser per board area, that means if it's 160mm x 100mm it will be 27 Euro; if it's smaller (unlikely) it will be cheaper, if it's bigger (likely), it will be more expensive, accordingly.

With 3 individually clocked BBD boards, I rather go for a bigger size than for minimal cost, to minimize interaction.

Disclaimer: I'll take the freedom to cancel the project if I don't get enough orders for the projected price, even if you have already bought your TDA chips. I think it's better for you to have some spare TDAs than to have boards, but no chips.

JH.

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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
And I have an idea how to make this a more interesting project.

Different modes, that makes the board more *Flex-Able*.
Great Idea.

jhaible wrote:
In Solina mode, my goal is to give a perfect emulation of that single effect, as close to the original as possible.

I think that's the most important thing.
Let's see, what I can do.
As I posted, my Solina is modified to switch off the modulators.
So, I'll record a couple of samples without the effect and with it.
With the clean sound you may feed your experiments to compare.

But it may last a couple of days 'til I get time for it.

jhaible wrote:
With 3 individually clocked BBD boards, I rather go for a bigger size than for minimal cost, to minimize interaction.


Does that mean, the complete stringphaser requires three boards (each 27$ or so) ?

However, I would like to get two of it. Very Happy
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Serenadi wrote:

Does that mean, the complete stringphaser requires three boards (each 27$ or so) ?


No, don't worry, certainly not 3 boards.

JH.

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Peake



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've uploaded the "ORB33" version of the Solina Schemos, along with an overview of the sections.

(Edit: I've been informed that the online version is illegible, and confirmed this. I've emailed the large files to someone who has offered to host them, and I'll post the URLs ASAP. Sorry about that.)
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AndyR1960



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Definitely the Crumar for me - I have the schematics and the two boards (chorus/LFO's) from a seriously battered Crumar Trilogy, which I took apart for the Curtis chips Smile

The smaller you can make the board, the better... I want to cram it into my modular!

Andy
www.solarmaxx.co.uk
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Peake



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

New URLs:

http://mkv.itm.miun.se/personal/per/diy/Solina2.tiff
http://mkv.itm.miun.se/personal/per/diy/SolinaChorusOverview.jpg
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jurgen, I know it's OT, but will you ever do a clone PCB of the Shulte Compact Phasing A? I know you built a clone on stripboard- but I'd love to see a PCB of this little Krautrock gem Cool Cool Cool Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
New URLs:

http://mkv.itm.miun.se/personal/per/diy/Solina2.tiff
http://mkv.itm.miun.se/personal/per/diy/SolinaChorusOverview.jpg


Thanks!

Looks quite similar at first glance.

JH.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Jurgen, I know it's OT, but will you ever do a clone PCB of the Shulte Compact Phasing A? I know you built a clone on stripboard- but I'd love to see a PCB of this little Krautrock gem Cool Cool Cool Wink


Interesting idea!

I even had started to make a clone of this, for Touched-by-Sound; actually, they showed my prototype on a NAMM show many years ago.

It's a funny little phaser. The circuit looks very simple at first glance, but there's more to it than you might suspect.

Due to some thermal interaction of the lamp driver transistor with the modulation voltage path, it really "comes alive" with some wonderful irregular modulation shapes. At least my clone does; it's been too long since I owned an original to say if it shows the same effect. Probably yes. If not, that's something I would by no means omit when making more clones.

I never say "no" to project ideas like this, if there's enough demand Smile
Just can't say when.

JH.

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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jürgen,

A *careful* question.
Did you receive enough mail to realize the solina project ?

TDA1022 isn't as cheap. I would like to hear an also *carefull* 'yes', before buing a couple of these.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Serenadi wrote:
Jürgen,

A *careful* question.
Did you receive enough mail to realize the solina project ?

TDA1022 isn't as cheap. I would like to hear an also *carefull* 'yes', before buing a couple of these.


Not yet.

But

a) the forum has been down, and
b) I got a lot (and I mean a lot) more orders than mails of interest for that Tau project, so I'm optimistic for the solina, too.
(I think I haven't even posted about it on analogue heaven and synth-diy.)

What's the going rate for TDA1022s now?
This project will not be cheap, just from PCB board space alone, so I'd thought the price for the BBD chips would only be a small part of the whole thing.

JH.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting, PowerP just posted a Solina patch on the G2 forum, http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-20026.html

I've never played a Solina myself, and wasn't too familiar with it. I played the Laurie Anderson video (thanks for posting that link) and played PowerP's patch along with the video. It was a dead on match. Amazing.

Anyhow, probably a lot could be learned from studying his patch even if you don't have a G2.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
v-un-v wrote:
Jurgen, I know it's OT, but will you ever do a clone PCB of the Shulte Compact Phasing A? I know you built a clone on stripboard- but I'd love to see a PCB of this little Krautrock gem Cool Cool Cool Wink


Interesting idea!

It's a funny little phaser. The circuit looks very simple at first glance, but there's more to it than you might suspect.

I never say "no" to project ideas like this, if there's enough demand Smile
Just can't say when.



In my books, it was the most awesome phaser, ever.

Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream, Harmonia, Cluster, Sand, Klaus Shultze.....- you name it, the Shulte has starred with all of these classic artists and recordings. It has such a wonderful phase. Really spacey and dare I say it; 'electronic'.

The circuit is very interesting indeed- very simple, but like I said, it has a sound unlike any other. The only phaser that comes anywhere near the Shulte 'character' is an old one made by Guyatone- but the Guyatone
doesn't have that 'attack' into the sound, or that one cycle up, the other down characteristic (listen to Autobahn by Kraftwerk sometime- or Deluxe by Harmonia)

You can tell I'm a 70's Krautrock junkie? Cool Laughing

A Shulte Compact Phasing PCB? Oh yes please!! Wink Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A Schulte Compact clone! Yeah! bring them on! By the ton!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JH,

You're killin' me Very Happy

I've been so tied up with the Klee lately, I've been dreading a thread like this - I haven't done anything more than drool over the Tau PCB, and now...this. A Solina ensemble is one of those things I've always dreamed of, and now the Compact Phaser????

God save my soul, but both of them trip my trigger to no end.....

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