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Genoqs Octopus
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Editor's comment: The term "rich man's toy" is pejorative. If the forum is going to remain civil, we need to think very carefully before using a term like that.

I once, regrettably, referred to reverb as a "cheap trick". This really upset a lot of people. One one hand, why should I care if people are aggravated by a little considered comment I may have made - on the other hand, if I had thought just for a minute, I could have phrased it in a more "non-violent" way. What I really meant to say was the I thought reverb was often over used.


Laughing

Oh Mosc! I have made a career in 'putting my foot in it' too!! Shocked Laughing

I think another problem lies with the English language. English is the worlds number one spoken internet language- mainly because of America, but it was invented by us British who have been using it for rather longer than the Americans. Unfortunately (or should that be fortunately?!?) everybody else is forced to use English, and we (me) forget sometimes that Americans DON'T play on English like the English do, and I suppose that all those who are 'forced' to use English follow the American rules, where things are taken very literally. Being an Englishman, it is very easy to forget this Rolling Eyes Embarassed

Reverb as a 'cheap trick'?- I understand exactly what you mean- but if I think hard, I can perhaps see why others would find that upsetting.

OTOH, and this will probably upset a few others (and why not?- After all this is supposed to be a democracy?), it is their duty to get out of their high trees and get a ****ing grip too?! Wink Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:

Walnut ends? My wife buys wood to build her 10th century instruments. Walnut ends are about £5 raw, if you're careful with your milling, and finishing them would be about another £2 max. Classy looks can be had for cheap. Mahogany isn't much more, I might add. Teak might even be cheaper. Kevazinga would be more striking, and more expensive, but not by much, given that rainforest hardwoods are available, but you might not want people to know you are using endangered hardwoods on your interface. Rich man's toy, indeed.


Good hardwood can be cheap- if you know where to get a good source from, but that isn't really where the expense lies. How long does it take your wife to craft the wood into something worth using? Does she do it by hand? My Father's partner built a Viol. it took her 3 years. Not full time (she's a graphic designer by trade), but 3 years is a long (and expensive) time.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
EdisonRex wrote:

Walnut ends? My wife buys wood to build her 10th century instruments. Walnut ends are about £5 raw, if you're careful with your milling, and finishing them would be about another £2 max. Classy looks can be had for cheap. Mahogany isn't much more, I might add. Teak might even be cheaper. Kevazinga would be more striking, and more expensive, but not by much, given that rainforest hardwoods are available, but you might not want people to know you are using endangered hardwoods on your interface. Rich man's toy, indeed.


Good hardwood can be cheap- if you know where to get a good source from, but that isn't really where the expense lies. How long does it take your wife to craft the wood into something worth using? Does she do it by hand? My Father's partner built a Viol. it took her 3 years. Not full time (she's a graphic designer by trade), but 3 years is a long (and expensive) time.


JE is pursuing a master's degree in 10th century instrument building. You should see some of her work. She just built a 10th century lyre (from plans from an archeological dig) that totally turns the theory that the lyre was a soft instrument on its head. This thing is as loud as a spanish guitar. Which makes more sense, since the lyre was around for 1000 years. Her first harp took 9 months of carving. She can turn out a syrinx in an afternoon. The bone pipes are kind of a 3 day thing and I am involved in the finishing because I do the fipples better than her, but I bet she will "blow me away" eventually, I'm expecting that her "me do it" ego will prevail. She's good at what she does. We have some pics around.

More to the point, she can do a good wood end in a couple hours. I would think a mass producer would be able to do a pile of wood ends in a couple hours. If you look at most of them, they are mass produced and rather simple.

And yeah, I understand the time scales. What we have found is there is economy in volume, and experience.

It impresses and amazes me how much many of us are involved in other areas, or know people who are, regarding music/art/sculpture.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
mosc wrote:
What is becoming obvious to me is that controllers are the future.

...or maybe "advancements of the user interface" are the future.
I agree, anyway Exclamation


I couldn't agree more.

I mean since I bought a computer, I've been less productive that I was when I had my hardware set-up. The bottom line is that a qwerty keyboard is essentially a typewriter right? And unless you are Ennio Morricone or Simeon (from Silver Apples) you ain't gonna get that far- unless you're into writing code and apart from Supercollider ( Exclamation Laughing Exclamation )......

okay, okay.... some people write amazing music with a qwerty keyboard, but I'm too impatient. I'd rather work with something that someone else has designed and I can have fun with it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
I would think a mass producer would be able to do a pile of wood ends in a couple hours. If you look at most of them, they are mass produced and rather simple.


But the Octopi's (?) wood casing is not simple- and I would imagine that these instruments are neither mass produced? The Octopus looks fantastic and those looks are reflected in the price tag. The front panel also looks expensive. Bill "State Machine"'s Klee front panel as a one-off cost him £200. Okay, make more and the price drops, but his panel is fairly compact. The Octopi's panel is not compact- it looks more like one of Raymond Scott's creations Cool

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
EdisonRex wrote:
I would think a mass producer would be able to do a pile of wood ends in a couple hours. If you look at most of them, they are mass produced and rather simple.


But the Octopi's (?) wood casing is not simple- and I would imagine that these instruments are neither mass produced? The Octopus looks fantastic and those looks are reflected in the price tag. The front panel also looks expensive. Bill "State Machine"'s Klee front panel as a one-off cost him £200. Okay, make more and the price drops, but his panel is fairly compact. The Octopi's panel is not compact- it looks more like one of Raymond Scott's creations Cool


This is a fair point. And yes, you pay for someone's labour. Check out a Selmer sax or a Bach trumpet sometime, you want to see what people will pay for an instrument. Or check out the EWI 4000, to be closer to the point, except it's cheaper and doesn't have nice feaures.

I might also offer that the Octopus' panel might still be mass produced. Even my S-1000 shows signs of mass production, and I have serial number 24. granted there is no wood, but my point is that small runs can mimic bigger runs, and you wouldn't know the difference, and the price is invisible to you.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

S-1000? What Akai? These were most definitely mass produced!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
S-1000? What Akai? These were most definitely mass produced!


metasonix S-1000. NOT Akai. Mr Barbour would be amused.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bloody code numbers!! Laughing Embarassed
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Indeed, the discussion of the controllers is now. The piano lay out isn't the only way to control a musical instrument. In fact, ergonomic it is a disaster. Should be worth an extra thread, I think.

Wout
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:14 am    Post subject: Genoqs Octopus
Subject description: Midi Sequencer
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MOSC said:
"In this way, the Octopus, Buchla's lightning, The Continuum Controller, etc. show that control for performance - devices that allow the musician to actually play - are where it's at.

I've had many discussions with analog modular owners. We argue on and on about the sound. Usually, the thing comes down to this: the modular synth owners like the playing interface. They like all those knobs and the lack of quantization in the controls. It's that tactile experience in playing a modular that excites them."

I agree to that. Sitting behind a Laptop and clicking samples is nice but for live .... Controllers which allows interaction with musical equipment like Band manuals, Drum Pads, Midi Sequencer or D-Beam Controller, Laser Harps...or Circuit Bending boxes
are things to fascinate audience and gives Interaction and Responds.

But by the end everybody should use the equipment he/she likes.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Genoqs Octopus
Subject description: Midi Sequencer
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Dayflight wrote:
MOSC said:
"In this way, the Octopus, Buchla's lightning, The Continuum Controller, etc. show that control for performance - devices that allow the musician to actually play - are where it's at.

I've had many discussions with analog modular owners. We argue on and on about the sound. Usually, the thing comes down to this: the modular synth owners like the playing interface. They like all those knobs and the lack of quantization in the controls. It's that tactile experience in playing a modular that excites them."

I agree to that. Sitting behind a Laptop and clicking samples is nice but for live .... Controllers which allows interaction with musical equipment like Band manuals, Drum Pads, Midi Sequencer or D-Beam Controller, Laser Harps...or Circuit Bending boxes
are things to fascinate audience and gives Interaction and Responds.

But by the end everybody should use the equipment he/she likes.


Long ago, I tried to do performance with a mouse. it's a pain. I stopped doing it years ago. Although i am a keyboard player, there are many performances I have done that don't really need the keyboard. But a mouse isn't for music performance. At least not for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Genoqs Octopus
Subject description: Midi Sequencer
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EdisonRex wrote:
But a mouse isn't for music performance.


Ah but you're not allowed to say that (on an internet forum). Every method of input is a performance instrument.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject: Re: Genoqs Octopus
Subject description: Midi Sequencer
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v-un-v wrote:
EdisonRex wrote:
But a mouse isn't for music performance.


Ah but you're not allowed to say that (on an internet forum). Every method of input is a performance instrument.


But I qualified the statement, which you removed the context from. "at least not for me".

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh damn!

Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:21 am    Post subject: Re: Genoqs Octopus
Subject description: Midi Sequencer
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[quote="EdisonRex"]
Dayflight wrote:
But a mouse isn't for music performance. At least not for me.


I like to advocate the trackball for various kinds of PC usage. One advantage is that you don't have to move your arm, you can "throw" the pointer position around etc. After you get the knack, it's great for working with e.g. parts of the NMG2 editor (although some tasks, like connecting lots of wires in one sweep, are more cumbersome).

I'm hoping for a dedicated music controller with several trackballs (actually you can set this up with ChucK, which I'm thinking of doing).

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I use a trackball too btw (instead of a mouse). I think they are brilliant- and I also have a lot less wrist problems too Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In the studio I have both a mouse and a Shuttle Pro, which I have programmed for a number of useful functions. The jog wheel defaults to scrolling, for example, and beats using the mouse wheel. It's a little extra work setting up consistent key bindings with the shuttle pro but it's worth it.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Paul, have you heard any Silver Apples??

"The Simeon" is the precursor to the laptop qwerty keyboard- quite literally!

Quote:
If ever there was one group that was way ahead of its time, that honour could well belong to Silver Apples. Drums and hippyish vocals were nothing new back in 1968 of course but a huge home-made electronic machine certainly was. The 'Simeon' (named after its owner and singer) was a device made up of 80 manual controls and various oscillators. Simeon the human had to use his hands, elbows and knees to activate the controls resulting in some futuristic sounds. The other half of the duo (or three if you include the machine) was sticksman Dan Taylor who regularly incorporated as many as 13 drums and 5 cymbals into his set, as well as other percussion. The music sounds contemporary even today with the tunes being either sweetly melodic ('You're Not Foolin' Me', 'A Pox On You'), hypnotically intense (the mantra-like lyrics of 'Dancing Gods'), frighteningly experimental ('Dust', 'Gypsy Love') and sometimes, as on 'You And I' all three. Both of their albums are included here; their self-titled effort from 1968 is all about rhythm, 'Contact' from the following year was more experimental but also more tuneful. Both, however, are worthy additions to any psychedelia lover's collection.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Paul, have you heard any Silver Apples??

"The Simeon" is the precursor to the laptop qwerty keyboard- quite literally!

Quote:
If ever there was one group that was way ahead of its time, that honour could well belong to Silver Apples. Drums and hippyish vocals were nothing new back in 1968 of course but a huge home-made electronic machine certainly was. The 'Simeon' (named after its owner and singer) was a device made up of 80 manual controls and various oscillators. Simeon the human had to use his hands, elbows and knees to activate the controls resulting in some futuristic sounds. The other half of the duo (or three if you include the machine) was sticksman Dan Taylor who regularly incorporated as many as 13 drums and 5 cymbals into his set, as well as other percussion. The music sounds contemporary even today with the tunes being either sweetly melodic ('You're Not Foolin' Me', 'A Pox On You'), hypnotically intense (the mantra-like lyrics of 'Dancing Gods'), frighteningly experimental ('Dust', 'Gypsy Love') and sometimes, as on 'You And I' all three. Both of their albums are included here; their self-titled effort from 1968 is all about rhythm, 'Contact' from the following year was more experimental but also more tuneful. Both, however, are worthy additions to any psychedelia lover's collection.


I haven't heard them in many years. I didn't even know they had re-formed. My brother had one of their albums.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
elektro80 wrote:

Well.. I don´t want it. Like.. I´m not sure what I would need it for. No doubt that it must be great and all that though.


Shocked

But it's one of those things like tabletop Space Invaders- a great conversation piece- and you can't fault that it looks great in the dark Cool

The problem with the youtube vids is that Dieter (I'm presuming that's Dieter?) makes programming look like child's play, but later on there is another really tedious video of some dude just pressing (what looks like) thousands of combinations of buttons only to end up with a really bog-standard rave-like sound. There are parallels here to be drawn with software- where the actual programmers of these machines will excel with them, but people who just want a quick return will struggle, then look elsewhere.

As a tool for dance music (and repetitive Tadream sort of stuff) , I think the Octopus is a real winner, but for more organic linear sounding things it's not really made for that I think? But to be honest, since I've bought a computer, I've made far less music than I did when I had made-for-purpose equipment (and no computer!).


That "some dude" was me. Somebody requested a video of real-world basic usage of the Octopus. Although Dieter's videos don't show it, he has to prepare the Octopus for use in the studio. This includes setting MIDI channels, setting base track pitches, etc. I showed setting up a very simple track from power-on, although it's not sexy, it is part of normal usage!

I will try and post up some more advanced videos on some topics that Dieter has not covered. Also, I may be of a different mindset than most who use such a sequencer, but it wasn't the sometimes random, otherworld modulation capabilities of the Octopus that attracted me. I use it as a fairly straightforward multitrack sequencer, constructing complete songs. Admittedly this is one area where there will be room for improvement on the Octopus (song construction). Right now there is only the page clustering concept (chaining multitrack loops). The machine is flexible enough to serve in both manners.

cheers
ripe
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome Ripe...

Glad to have you here.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ripe909 wrote:


That "some dude" was me.


Shocked Laughing

Superb! welcome to electro-music.com ripe! Very Happy

So what exactly were you trying to do in that video?? Shocked Confused
Do you think that a video of it actually making a sound via triggering would have been more helpful?, No offence, but a 'far away' shot pressing lots of tiny little buttons is a very hard way to tell what's happening/ what you are doing etc. Idea

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wanted to show how the Octopus is set up from power-on. That is why I have subtitled the video with what exactly is happening at each step. Although it may be hard to read from a YouTube video.

It wouldn't be very exciting to hear the sequencer playing as the MIDI channels for each track are set (?)

These are the main things that happen in the video...

1. Setting the MIDI channels of all 9 tracks at once (using the MIX map).
2. Setting the base pitch of all 9 tracks
3. Entering the notes in time
4. Entering notes pitch offset using an external MIDI controller
5. Setting up a custom track "chain" to play the tracks in sequence

After that (where the video ends) is where the fun really begins Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ripe909 wrote:


After that (where the video ends) is where the fun really begins Smile


Shocked Laughing

Okay. Why did you stop that camera rolling then Question Confused

There have been some really good video demos lately on YouTube regarding many of the Korg Electribe series. They're not really demos of the hardware, but tracks that people have made- and you can watch the musicians sort of interact (although most of the time I run them in the background while I do other things- the music imo is good enough to do that)

here are a few of my favourites;

A
B
C

....And yes I do have a bit of a softspot for the Detroit techno sound! Wink Very Happy

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