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Your Dream VCO
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
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Peake



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Am I wrong that you are not considering "good-sounding" a feature, and are only looking for hardware feature requests? I don't care if it only has one waveform output and one CV input, and nothing else whatsoever, if it sounds good.

I'll assume that you have already taken care of that and are asking after the form to deliver it in.
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cbm



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, in your case, Mike, an oscillator needs "euphoria", that ineffable something, to make it sound good. Euphoria is unmeasurable, as far as I can tell, so I can see wanting to focus on quantifiable things, at least for some phases of the design process.

I'm certainly not saying that you're wrong in your euphoria-inducing oscillator selection criteria, just that it seems a hard thing to design for, without knowing what euphoria consists of.
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Adam-V



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I want all my future VCOs to come with euphoria knobs on them. Twisted Evil
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Adam-V wrote:
I want all my future VCOs to come with euphoria knobs on them. Twisted Evil


I am fond of "Power" and "Glory".

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Peake



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If no one else can quantify what's good about vintage gear, then only vintage gear will sound like that. Okay with me... I've got the schematics.
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Adam-V



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's very hard to quantify something that is so subjective; what makes vintage gear good in my opinion is that it sounds great although we have to ask how much of that is simply due to familiarity? There are many people that cannot hear any difference between a vintage synth and an equivalent software synth. There are also people who think digital synths sound better than analogue synths. I think it is the slight imperfections in the vintage gear that give them their character. An oscillator that can produce nice clean waveforms may not have as much character as one that produces slightly dirtier waveforms.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Adam-V
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RF



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm stepping way out of my league here...
I agree that it's the imperfections that make for character. Perfect is often a bit bland.

I wonder if the above statements on which oscillator sounds best would stand up to a test?

Could you pick out one oscillator from another based on side by side audio comparison of a raw waveform? How about from looking at it on a 'scope?
"Is this sawtooth wave from oscillator #1, #2 or #3?"

I've got a pretty good ear, but I couldn't do that any more than I could identify if there was 16 or 22 guage wire running to the test speakers.

If you can, isn't "how" you were able to identify it the answer to the original question?
"Fat" doesn't really help...
"crossover distortion" or "higher signal to noise" ahhh!! That tells me stuff.
My inner-engineer wants to quantify it!
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Peake



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been into synths since about 1980 and have been making a living programming them since 1987. I've owned many analog synths, some just to see if I'd like them (those days are long since past- you can't find anything you want for $100.00 anymore- those were the days). I've had many digital synths and done factory programming for several.

I've been comparing synths and going back to what I like for a long time. I've had several people go out and buy some of the things I like best, when I've shown them or used them in sessions. I've bought things others have loved and shown me. From tube gear to synths.

There are two schools of synthesis.

1. Organic. Slight random behaviour makes it interesting. Dirt in the signal and control path etc. make it growly and interesting.

2. Clean. Remove technically offensive artefacts and enhance purity. Makes for a more transparent sound, especially in compressors, etc.

Obviously, I go for organic. Much of the gear I love is in the top studios and mastering houses. You may or may not agree with my take on things. Some do. I just want to quantify the reasons why. As there is less and less of what I like around these days. I'm almost pleading with people to take up the challenge and bring back the good old-fashioned stuff.

Because who among us can afford a Moog Modular, Buchla Modular, VCS3, or Oberheim 8-Voice these days? If you can, you might hear what I'm talking about. It's there, all right. I'd happily own less-expensive gear if it provided what I like. Even if it were software. I want the experience and don't care about price and name. I'm not overawed by names and persons and claims. I like what I like, pure and simple as that.

If you don't think I'm on to something, feel free to ignore me. Look at two of Juergen Haible's most popular projects for DIY: the Tau phaser (I've owned an original for a decade and dropped cash upon first hearing it) and the Solina chorus. Some people agree with me. (wink)
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
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Peake



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:
Well, in your case, Mike, an oscillator needs "euphoria", that ineffable something, to make it sound good. Euphoria is unmeasurable, as far as I can tell, so I can see wanting to focus on quantifiable things, at least for some phases of the design process.

I'm certainly not saying that you're wrong in your euphoria-inducing oscillator selection criteria, just that it seems a hard thing to design for, without knowing what euphoria consists of.


Listen to inductor processing. Listen to high-end tube EQ (especially how sweet it is at very high frequencies compared to solid-state). Listen to the distortions of a good audio transformer. Listen to germanium-based electronics. Listen to the movement and grit in the old Moog oscillators with a Moog power supply. Listen to the dirt in a combo organ, note by note, and find what sort of intermodulation is causing it to not sound perfect in pitch and timbre.

Euphoria is hardly ineffable. It's right there and no one will quantify it.
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
cbm wrote:
Well, in your case, Mike, an oscillator needs "euphoria", that ineffable something, to make it sound good. Euphoria is unmeasurable, as far as I can tell, so I can see wanting to focus on quantifiable things, at least for some phases of the design process.

I'm certainly not saying that you're wrong in your euphoria-inducing oscillator selection criteria, just that it seems a hard thing to design for, without knowing what euphoria consists of.


Listen to inductor processing. Listen to high-end tube EQ (especially how sweet it is at very high frequencies compared to solid-state). Listen to the distortions of a good audio transformer. Listen to germanium-based electronics. Listen to the movement and grit in the old Moog oscillators with a Moog power supply. Listen to the dirt in a combo organ, note by note, and find what sort of intermodulation is causing it to not sound perfect in pitch and timbre.

Euphoria is hardly ineffable. It's right there and no one will quantify it.


Ah, but your euphoria and my euphoria might be very different things. I don't know at all if I want grit in my dream VCO. I think the point being made is even if you measure it, your subjectivity bias will creep in. This reminds me of back when I was doing sound and we'd be in a club and I'd get into arguments with other sound guys about miking, say, a snare drum with what mic and at what position. Or, worse, the mix itself, how much EQ and FX to put in. Extremely subjective, contextual and bordering on religious dogma.

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Parker: Like, old and outdated.


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Peake



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
Peake wrote:
Euphoria is hardly ineffable. It's right there and no one will quantify it.


Ah, but your euphoria and my euphoria might be very different things. I don't know at all if I want grit in my dream VCO. I think the point being made is even if you measure it, your subjectivity bias will creep in. This reminds me of back when I was doing sound and we'd be in a club and I'd get into arguments with other sound guys about miking, say, a snare drum with what mic and at what position. Or, worse, the mix itself, how much EQ and FX to put in. Extremely subjective, contextual and bordering on religious dogma.


I'm looking for specific answers and repeatability in producing it in electronics. I'm well aware that others would like for me to be quiet. If only I could find one or two persons who enjoy this same sort of thing, I'd be happy.

I'm not against "modern" design in general, only in the fact that it's overwhelming and obscuring things that are important. At least audio engineers are not allowing these things to go the way of the dodo. I stand by the Fairchild. You may choose not to. Shrug. I just want to find someone to play with. And maybe use the controlled, detached effect of modern synthesizers as a special effect in juxtaposition to the old.

Have you thrown out all of your records featuring vintage synths? I'm kidding to make an example that it's not the horror some depict. Excepting the "Moog" records.
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
EdisonRex wrote:
Peake wrote:
Euphoria is hardly ineffable. It's right there and no one will quantify it.


Ah, but your euphoria and my euphoria might be very different things. I don't know at all if I want grit in my dream VCO. I think the point being made is even if you measure it, your subjectivity bias will creep in. This reminds me of back when I was doing sound and we'd be in a club and I'd get into arguments with other sound guys about miking, say, a snare drum with what mic and at what position. Or, worse, the mix itself, how much EQ and FX to put in. Extremely subjective, contextual and bordering on religious dogma.


I'm looking for specific answers and repeatability in producing it in electronics. I'm well aware that others would like for me to be quiet. If only I could find one or two persons who enjoy this same sort of thing, I'd be happy.

I'm not against "modern" design in general, only in the fact that it's overwhelming and obscuring things that are important. At least audio engineers are not allowing these things to go the way of the dodo. I stand by the Fairchild. You may choose not to. Shrug. I just want to find someone to play with. And maybe use the controlled, detached effect of modern synthesizers as a special effect in juxtaposition to the old.

Have you thrown out all of your records featuring vintage synths? I'm kidding to make an example that it's not the horror some depict. Excepting the "Moog" records.


I don't want you to be quiet at all. I just want to understand you, and for you to understand me.

And one of my favourite records, indeed, one that shaped my love of electronic music, was a Moog record by Paul Beaver and Bernard Krause.

*pouts*

I even bought a remix of The Zodiac recently. On CD, of course. The irony was not lost.

But you did say one thing that I was going to say, and didn't. That's collecting VCOs, both old and new. Yup.

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EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


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Peake



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
I don't want you to be quiet at all. I just want to understand you, and for you to understand me.

And one of my favourite records, indeed, one that shaped my love of electronic music, was a Moog record by Paul Beaver and Bernard Krause.

*pouts*

I even bought a remix of The Zodiac recently. On CD, of course. The irony was not lost.

But you did say one thing that I was going to say, and didn't. That's collecting VCOs, both old and new. Yup.


I don't know how to be understood. I only know how to shout. I'm learning, thanks for giving me some space to grow.

I don't consider Beaver and Krause to be "Moog" records...They did good stuff. "The Plastic Cow Goes Moooooog!", "Moog Groove", etc. are examples of such shoddy workmanship that they pull Wendy Carlos down a notch by their mere existence.

Those Zodiac records are really something else. I have several on vinyl (evidently they came together as a batch of 12!).

And yes, all colors make up the rainbow. You have your favorite, I have mine. Mixture makes the thing real. I'd never sell my Selector by choice. In fact, I'd use the VCA in place of the Moog VCA. I know when to bend.

Regards.
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
This reminds me of back when I was doing sound and we'd be in a club and I'd get into arguments with other sound guys about miking, say, a snare drum with what mic and at what position. Or, worse, the mix itself, how much EQ and FX to put in. Extremely subjective, contextual and bordering on religious dogma.


I know this is a diversion... but please try tp indulge me..

Anyways.. Paul has come up with a pretty good example here.. but I´m just to take it further.

We all know these militant soundmen, they breed like rats and cockroaches. We also know the trad live sound disasters. The most common disaster is when the soundman has tweaked the sound into something way out there.. practically turning say the drums into a different instrument and the mindless drummer still thinks he is playing the drums he can hear he is playing.

My point is that you will always have to consider the poor musician. Gear discussion are all just fine, but at some point the actual music and the sound a musician can get from an instrument is more important than the gear itself. There is a fine line here somewhere. Do we remember Miles Davis for his choice of tubes, horns and transformers? I´d say his music and his "style" comes first, uh... and then his drug habits. Laughing

I´m not suggesting that pro audio gear is of no relevance. I´m a big fan of all things weird and wonderful, and I´m the first to suggest putting a fair and proud bit of iron into whatever. ( Right now I´m researching 1:1 transformers of different makes to put into my fonik SSM 2044 8-filterbank ). However, what I am saying here is that there is a bit more to this than quantifying the gear itself.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nosferatu wrote:
Quote:
Listen to inductor processing. Listen to high-end tube EQ (especially how sweet it is at very high frequencies compared to solid-state). Listen to the distortions of a good audio transformer. Listen to germanium-based electronics. Listen to the movement and grit in the old Moog oscillators with a Moog power supply. Listen to the dirt in a combo organ, note by note, and find what sort of intermodulation is causing it to not sound perfect in pitch and timbre. Euphoria is hardly ineffable. It's right there and no one will quantify it.


Let me ask you one thing, if all these things that you request can be quantified (which means emulated) in a DSP algorithm would you accept
it in that form?


I have to say I feel lucky that my ear is so poor that it can decern no tangible benefit from tubes, germanium-based electronics, and the like. Perhaps that's why I'm so content with a simple fixation on note relationships Rolling Eyes

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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, so far it seams that everyone are happy with their old rusty beepers! Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nosferatu wrote:
Well, so far it seams that everyone are happy with their old rusty beepers! Rolling Eyes


Yeah, those two thyratron VCOs in the Wretch and those three in my M5N are so old and rusty. Old technology isn't bad, it's just old. We've had this discussion somewhere way back in this thread, I think.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nosferatu wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, those two thyratron VCOs in the Wretch and those three in my M5N are so old and rusty. Old technology isn't bad, it's just old.


Ah, you consider M5 and Wretch to be old an rusty?
Quote:

We've had this discussion somewhere way back in this thread, I think.


We already know that Edison.
So to get the initial question at least atiny bit forward it could
be nice if people actually gave some doable wishes instead.


No, I consider them to be old technology. Face it, only a guy like Barbour who is a valve militant would have really come up with a product like that. And Ken Macbeth is actually one heck of a quality engineer. But the designs are rather old. We keep going around in circles on that point, and I don't understand why.

Anyway, doable wishes?

Variability of waveform in a more fluid fashion. VC for example. VC mixing out of waveform. TZ of course. A feature I like in Macbeth's VCO3 is that he's actually put a stability knob on, affects the tracking of VCO3 from right on to not very on at all. My dream VCO would be the most versatile of the VCOs in my collection. Awesome FM capabilities, tracking for 7 octaves, plus LFO to minute long periods, adjustable waveform accuracy, possibly via VC too, VC control of saw shape through triangle, like PWM but VC slope. Calibrated harmonic generation.

Any of these making sense?

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Peake



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Your list makes sense.

Nosferatu wrote:

Let me ask you one thing, if all these things that you request can be quantified (which means emulated) in a DSP algorithm would you accept
it in that form?

Absolutely. I love Chowning FM, absynth, Live's functionality, and the ease of digital editing. I don't like how Sound Tools and other audio recording software sound and worse, act (through plug-ins). Give me the timbre that creates the feeling in me and I'll use it in any form. Unless of course there are destructive assholes simply stealing it instead of doing something new and good.

Plug-ins are by far the worst example of my "we've lost something" argument. Even those based upon hardware cards with their own CPUs.

Trust me Bachus, if you compared a Manley EQP1A copy against any solid-state EQ, you'd hear the difference in the high end. But then, you'd have to spend some $3K to have it. Still better than the $10K per for the originals with all that crappy obsolete ineffable technology.

I'm trying to chide engineers into researching these things. I like Ken MacBeth's direction and some are trying. It's a good thing, and if people don't care, it can be disgarded. I'll say it again. Guitarists know that germanium diodes sound better than silicon, in regard to fuzz and distortion. There is a technical aspect to this which may be of interest. I'm told that silicon shuts off at about 0.7V, and germanium doesn't. It may be niggling, but does it exist, and does it mean that we are sensitive to these niggling differences?

Regards.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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