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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
Your Dream VCO
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

Seams that he have brought out the V/oct tracking trim pot to the front panel!?


Yes. Damn useful. I wish Barbour had done that oh the Wretch. Pain in the ass trying to see into the holes with my old tired eyes and a tweaker tool, all the time. Although Ken's VCOs are *much* more stable, but that's another story.

Quote:

what do you mean by old designs?


Eric says himself that thyratron VCOs is an old design, dates back to the 30s at least, I think actually earlier, but I'd need to go give references to places you may already know about. The clever thing done in the Wretch is the 1.8 octaves of tracking it does.

And I spoke with Ken about his. His has improvements, but it's not exactly a new design. Done well, it is very accurate and stable. He is capable of discussing them himself.

Quote:

Eric is not valve militant! Hes a nice and ordinary dude with neat ideas
which he take the opportunity to exploit since nobody else are doing it.


From one of the stickers I got in the box with the wretch:

BLOW YOUR PRESETS OUT YOUR ASS!

Sometime you should read the manual to the S-1000. I did. It gives a lot of insight on Eric's thinking. I didn't say I didn't agree, or didn't like it. I'm just using it as an example of old technology used in a novel new way.

Quote:

OK lets see now, :Calibrated harmonic generation:
what do you mean by that?


As we all know from Electronic Music 101, the saw has all harmonics and the triangle has only the odd harmonics. Having a calibrated way to move between these two states without needing a filter to modify the initial waveform would be a nice thing. It goes in line with a voltage controlled ramp, moving the forward saw to a triangle, then to a backward saw by VC.

Tracking for 7 octaves? yeah, my Wretch can't do it. The M5N can and then some. My Voyager isn't as good at it as I wish, actually. Not 7 octaves, but maybe I need to get better calibration equipment because the last time I was inside it I might have messed up the low end on the calibration.

Quote:

hy the hell cant i find a supplier for the XR2209 VCO anymore!!


How many would you like to buy?

_________________
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EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


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Last edited by EdisonRex on Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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cbm



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
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Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
Guitarists know that germanium diodes sound better than silicon, in regard to fuzz and distortion.


While this risks veering wildly off topic, I wouldn't categorize the "germanium vs. silicon" choice for fuzz as one being clearly better than the other. They are each good at some things. In fact the specific sample of a given style of transistor transistor can be as important as what kind it is; all 2N1306s are not exactly the same.

I consider myself as something of a fuzztone / distortion junkie, owning and using an embarrassing number of them. I have fuzztones from each camp, and like them for the different things that they do. The other aspects of a fuzz design can be as important as the choice of transistor.

===

So here's a re-framing of the original question of this thread:

Assuming that your dream VCO had great sound, no matter what, what features would you want it to have?
 
-C
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
David says himself that thyratron VCOs is an old design, dates back to the 30s at least, I think actually earlier, but I'd need to go give references to places you may already know about. The clever thing done in the Wretch is the 1.8 octaves of tracking it does.

David? Ken?, What, who??!!
I'm completely lost??!!

Quote:
And I spoke with Ken about his. His has improvements, but it's not exactly a new design. Done well, it is very accurate and stable. He is capable of discussing them himself.

Are you saying M5 uses thyratron VCOs??!!

Quote:
From one of the stickers I got in the box with the wretch:
BLOW YOUR PRESETS OUT YOUR ASS!

Well, Eric uses strong words sometimes. Rolling Eyes
Im sure Eric has a good and many for that matter, laught's at it all.

Quote:

Sometime you should read the manual to the S-1000. I did. It gives a lot of insight on Eric's thinking. I didn't say I didn't agree, or didn't like it. I'm just using it as an example of old technology used in a novel new way.

He got beaten up by some friendly people at at sdiy list once! Rolling Eyes

Quote:
How many would you like to buy?

Depends on the price.

Peake:
This one?
http://www.recproaudio.com/diy_pro_audio/diy_files/eqp_1a/eqp-1a_schem.jpg
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry Nos if I am confusing you. I'm also screwing up names left and right.

Eric Barbour - S-1000 Wretch --- Ken Macbeth - M5N. There is no David. Only Zu'ul.

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Parker: Like, old and outdated.


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Peake



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake:
This one?
http://www.recproaudio.com/diy_pro_audio/diy_files/eqp_1a/eqp-1a_schem.jpg

Yes, thanks.

Features?

-Tracking calibration trimpots available through the front panel (sealed with rubber nubs ala' CAT and SH5, not open like the SEM).
-Large main Frequency knob. Small, even tiny Fine frequency knob.
-Inverting CV attenuators. Might need center detent with zero trimming.
-CV of duty cycle

I have just basically described the Buchla 258 front panel. Octave switching isn't really important to me.

My question goes out regarding germanium versus silicon: How would germanium diodes sound in a diode filter? The VCS3 uses 1N4148s. I don't know what the MS50 uses off the top of my head (schematic at my flickr site, and elsewhere on the net).

Total newbie wants to know.
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Peake



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mmmm, germaniumy noise.
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bridechamber



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is a funny discussion!

What I'd like in a VCO: Dual unit, normalled to Exp FM, VC Variable Waveform like Blacet, and VC Sine Shape since that's usually easy to implement. PWM, variable Sync like Oakley. Wide range, fairly stable. Throw through-zero in there if you can.

I don't give a poopie-the-day-after-Thai-food if the waveforms are perfect; actually, close is good enough. I think that is the Euphoria factor -- you hear some odd harmonics in a certain synth that resonate w/ you more than others. I think Moogs are distorted (though maybe at the filter) and loud and imperfect, and that sounds good to many people.

I would pay $300 for it, but that won't happen, so I'll make my own. So I think that answers the market research, eh... is it Peter? Wink

As far as Eric Barbour... some people are passionate. Some people have tempers. Who gives a crap? Don't buy his stuff. I don't know why people _attack_ him online. I can see defending yourself, but I've seen some blatant attacks. There's plenty of room for us all, and the market seems to be supporting the Ultra-Luddite fellow, and I love it.

The main point is there are many different ideal VCOs for many different people. Just make something different, and you'll get customers.
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bridechamber wrote:

As far as Eric Barbour... some people are passionate. Some people have tempers. Who gives a crap? Don't buy his stuff. I don't know why people _attack_ him online. I can see defending yourself, but I've seen some blatant attacks. There's plenty of room for us all, and the market seems to be supporting the Ultra-Luddite fellow, and I love it.


Glad to see you participating in a discussion here. Hope you do more.

Not to defend Eric, since he's actually got his guys here who do that, but I just took a suggestion from his manual and fed some audio level FM into VCO-1 on my Wretch. This was supposed to be sent from there to a ring modulator, but to tell you the truth, it was so rich I just sent the output on to another filter. Plenty of synthesizers are not for everyone. None is for everyone, in my experience. His are weird and wonderful, but they are not for beginners, and they are not for closed minds.

Oh well, I defended Eric anyway. So be it. Smile and you were too, and the same way. :p

_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


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bridechamber



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, Eric's great. We get along very well. I get along w/ a lot of people because it's easy for me to just say, "Well, that's Eric or Bobby John" and laugh about it. Some people spaz, I don't shower often enough. So it goes.
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bridechamber wrote:
Yeah, Eric's great. We get along very well. I get along w/ a lot of people because it's easy for me to just say, "Well, that's Eric or Bobby John" and laugh about it. Some people spaz, I don't shower often enough. So it goes.


So I guess we'll keep this relationship at a comfortable distance then.

nice to have you talking about hardware in any case. Do drop in to the other forums. I expect you know where they are. Wink There's more to talk about.

_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bridechamber



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
So I guess we'll keep this relationship at a comfortable distance then.


Is that because I don't shower often enough, or because I like Eric? Smile

As far as other forums, I rarely join in or even find them until, like this one, they are well along.

By the way, back to VCOs, the CGS VCO at cgs.synth.net is pretty close to ideal for me. The subosc section doesn't cover the whole range, but it's still nice. And the VC Sine/Tri section is great.
The CGS Bi'N'Tic Filter (Jan Hall design IIRC) is also a good VCO -- w/ a couple op amps you can get sawtooth and PWM squarewaves, as well as the divisions from the clock outputs, and the filter's output at high res -- some very complex sounds to be easily and cheaply had.
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

Is that because I don't shower often enough


yes.

Quote:

Whoho, now we'r talking, a synth made for closed minds!
What can that be, a Korg M1!


Weren't the 90s full of these? Roland makes lots of them. I think the Korg M1 qualifies too, come to think of it.

OK back to VCOs.

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Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


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Peake



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Germaniumy VCOs?

Check the older Moog waveforms. They're not perfect (and that's a plus).
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mummy VCO?
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nosferatu wrote:
Mummy VCO?


German mummy VCOs Wink

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EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
Germaniumy VCOs?

Check the older Moog waveforms. They're not perfect (and that's a plus).


I had some 901's super great sounding!
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, a close minded VCO must be one who have only inputs! happy smoker
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Peake



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Slightly more esoteric features---

-Reset, ala' LFOs that restart the waveform from a particular position (full amplitude) upon each keystrike
-Continuously variable phase position to sweeten the reset function
-Fuzz/Distortion or diode rectification/waveshaping per oscillator
-PLL harmonic tricks ala' the excellent Sherman Filter Bank

Look into Buchla's 259 and newer waveshaping tricks. Brilliant stuff.

Open minds like nice things on the output as well.
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd like fries with that.
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nosferatu wrote:
Hey, we are actually getting somewhere! Very Happy
Going to be a thought job to design something like this!

-VCO: Dual unit
-Normalled to Exp FM
-VC Variable Waveform like Blacet
-VC Sine Shape
-PWM,
-Variable Sync Like Oakely
-Through-zero
-Reset, ala' LFOs that restart the waveform from a particular position (full amplitude) upon each keystrike
-Continuously variable phase position to sweeten the reset function
-Fuzz/Distortion or diode rectification/waveshaping per oscillator
-PLL harmonic tricks ala' the excellent Sherman Filter Bank
-PWM that goes to 0-100% is useful.
-Iinverting attenuators (w/ 12:00 null).
-Linear and exponential FM
-Hard and soft sync
-Wave-morphing clean sine waves at one end of the modulation.
-SMS dual osc thumb-wheels for octave and semitone offset
-Sawtooth animators a la Electronotes.
-Oscillator clouds a la MOTM
-Self contained FM a la Modcan
-Through zero FM a la Cyndustries


Ok make me 4 of these Smile
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cbm



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And of course, they need to be available in all known formats.
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