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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » OSX as a music workstation
mac vs pc
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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
. Excuse me for this detour, back to hating everything.

Ahh fer chris' sake lightenup--this is s'posed to be a religeous war, remember Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, yes, I'm sorry.

Well, I agree with OTCX and James. I can conform that nearly all Mac's I've ever seen or touched were slow, crash-prone or otherwise misbehaved. There was macbook that seemed to run fine for a unusually long time by my standards (over two weeks) but then it's screen broke and put all sorts of weird colours and stripes all over the screen so it's owner bought a IBM laptop instead. I'D like to comment on OSX'S long-term behaviour but things like crashing because it's asked to read a CD it just burned itself have so far kept me from sticking around that long.

In addition to "slow" and "unstable" I would like to note the OS is extremely bloated (which likely causes the first two issues). It also looks like female hygiene product advertisements.

I'm not sure Mac's are expensive. Typically they cost about twice as much as similarly speced computers from other manufacturers, at least in Europe they do, but that might be a good price if it keeps you from having to run Vista.

We need to declare war on OSX

I can also confirm that nearly all Windows PC's are too slow and crash-prone, I don't think I ever succeeded in getting any XP computer to go online properly, for example, and where I encounter XP based computers that somebody somehow got online I'm quickly wondering why on earth they did so. Oh, wait, I remember I once got my GF's computer to go online. That involved a call to the distinctly baffled ISP to ask about the IP# of any DNS servers they had. There was also a need for multiple terminals open at the same time. I wonder how XP's target market does such things. Some people, like banks, think you can put XP online as long as you secure the connection and cement the computer into a wall. Then you can go watch XP crash at it's startup screen. More amusing then normal ATM functionality, less useful. Out of the box it's bloated but if in doubt it's likely you can delete the file and will never notice it's gone.

So, we need to declare war on XP as well.

Linux is neither slow nor unstable, typically it doesn't crash at all and it's the only one of the three that has a real-time kernel if you want it. Sadly most of the time it's not supported that well by hardware vendors, likely because people will be less inclined to upgrade if what they have is stable and fast. That makes it slightly harder to actually do something with your computer while it's running so quickly and dependably.

I'm kinda reluctant to declare war on Linux but perhaps we can flame about that?

Was that better?

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dewdrop_world



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Well, I agree with OTCX and James. I can conform that nearly all Mac's I've ever seen or touched were slow, crash-prone or otherwise misbehaved.


No, we don't agree on that. Your experience with OSX is totally abnormal, in my experience.

We've gone over this before and I won't waste much time on it now. It positively baffles me how you could have such a rotten time with an OS that works quite smoothly for me. It leaves me with the simple question, what were you doing wrong?

And again -- you have excellent points about the unnecessary roadblocks OSX throws up vs. configurability and customizability. I've taken those points to heart. But it's tough sometimes to separate the wheat from the chaff when you then turn around and start ranting about feminine hygiene. I can accept that you're fully rational about some issues but somewhat short of that about others Very Happy (in the sense of presenting matters of taste as matters of technical fact at times), and I can take the good points and leave the rest in the kitchen sink disposer where they belong.

BTW, in that xcode screenshot, they set the screen resolution artificially low and jacked up the font size, which does make it look ugly indeed. With default settings it looks nicer (though you will still hate the scrollbars).

I bet you can find settings for Linux interfaces that make it look clunky and unprofessional too. That says nothing bad about Linux, only about the user's poor taste.

James

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ahh, code highlighting. It's what keeps me sane during hours of coding, especially someone else's code!!

For somethings there's Mastercard, for everything else, there's EMACS. Smile Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:

No, we don't agree on that. Your experience with OSX is totally abnormal, in my experience.


I hope so, Apple would be long out of business if mine were typical examples. For one thing if Apple had the same experience with Apples as I had they could never finish a update. I meant I agreed with you that the opposite (PC being slow and crash-prone) was true.

Quote:
We've gone over this before and I won't waste much time on it now. It positively baffles me how you could have such a rotten time with an OS that works quite smoothly for me. It leaves me with the simple question, what were you doing wrong?


Many of these experiences were while looking at Apple advocates demonstrate how easy it was. That CD-burn scenario happened with a self-proclaimed Apple wizard demonstrating how to burn a CD on a dedicated protools workstation. I can't remember whether we even got the data out of it, maybe we simply did a re-take to Live on a PC.

That screen broke while I wasn't even in the same town.

Quote:
And again -- you have excellent points about the unnecessary roadblocks OSX throws up vs. configurability and customizability. I've taken those points to heart. But it's tough sometimes to separate the wheat from the chaff when you then turn around and start ranting about feminine hygiene. I can accept that you're fully rational about some issues but somewhat short of that about others Very Happy (in the sense of presenting matters of taste as matters of technical fact at times), and I can take the good points and leave the rest in the kitchen sink disposer where they belong.


In this case I was humouring Bachus and declaring a holy war on everything. I also poked fun at XP and at Linux. I think XP got the worst of it, which is mainly because I know that one best and it deserves it. I considdered going on to complain about more OS's as well, particularly mobile phones and consoles but decided enough was enough.

After typing that I decided to calm down, have some coffee and resolved that I don't realy *need* to do anything with live visuals and can simply ignore advances in computing until something good comes along. I already stopped using computer altogether after a BSOD too many once and only got back into it because of the Nord Modular. I was quite close to throwing the physical computer over the balcony at that point (Win 95, no net access, little tuning)

I may still do that because frankly I don't know how much of this I can take anymore, it's like computing gets a little worse every year but then on a whim I tried re-wording my search and found this;
http://www.kiritanflux.de/OptimizingOSX103Realtimev2.pdf

That is in fact the guide to OSX tuning that I have been looking for for a long time now. I wonder whether that will still work with the OS's modern versions. If that will still work and it indeed hose everything but the BSD core while keeping the ability to install drivers I'm all set. That would actually make it easier to remove system components from OSX then it is for XP or Win98 where you can remove a lot but you need to tread very carefully. I may yet become a OSX advocate. One without ever seeing the "finder" "spotlight" or "dock" :¬)


Quote:

BTW, in that xcode screenshot, they set the screen resolution artificially low and jacked up the font size, which does make it look ugly indeed. With default settings it looks nicer (though you will still hate the scrollbars).

I bet you can find settings for Linux interfaces that make it look clunky and unprofessional too. That says nothing bad about Linux, only about the user's poor taste.


Sure. What I did was search in Google for "xcode" and clicked on "images", then clicked on the first thumbnail. No selection was done by me at all (I swear, try it for yourself!). Perhaps this is a case of me doing something wrong and worst-possible Apple scenarios feeling attracted to me? I had nothing to do with the selection of this particular image and no reason to assume it was anything but typical. Other screenshots do indeed look slightly better, I admit. With a different skin and icons it might be ok.

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dewdrop_world



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I meant I agreed with you that the opposite (PC being slow and crash-prone) was true.


Oh, yes indeed, that.

My office issued me a Dell Win2k laptop. It's OK. I avoid browsing suspicious sites, don't open crap emails and don't install any junk widgets or toolbars and it's reasonably stable. It is not fast. Boot time can be up to 3-5 minutes (my Macbook Pro takes about 30-40 seconds)... then, the duration from the time I login to the time I can actually read my new emails in Outlook is another 2-3 minutes. (Apple Mail launches in less than 5 seconds usually, maybe 10 after reboot when the filesystem cache is empty.)

Then there is the Windows mechanism to check for updates, which clogs the CPU at 100% for several minutes at a time, 3-5 times every day. In-frickin-sane. Remember, kiddies, in Windows land, this is a FEATURE. We will cripple your machine 20 times every week just to check for updates and you should be thankful for it.

Talk about a system not suitable for realtime applications. I don't have invective strong enough to address this adequately.

So if this is what is called "pcs are fast," I have to conclude the initial writer is either not paying attention or certifiably insane. I don't want to drink any of that kool-aid at home, thank you very much.

Kassen wrote:
In this case I was humouring Bachus and declaring a holy war on everything.


Oh... Embarassed I missed the humor. My bad.

James

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just clocked it, in the interest of science. My XP laptop boots from hitting the button to showing the login in 32 seconds. From entering my pass-phrase until the hour-glass disappears (mainly initialising the soundcard and seting up the desktop, I think) ads another 7 or so seconds. It never checks for updates, there are in fact no processes running at all that aren't essential to booting or making music, I can point at everything that runs and tell you exactly what it does and why it can't be removed.

So, that's a very different feeling side of the elephant. Windows XP in my opinion, is a perfectly fine OS, just as long as you don't use it for any of those things MS assumed you would use it for (which is kinda sad but the laptop was a bargain and frankly I don't care what MS wants).

But "PCs" (asuming we are talking Windows) *can* boot quite fast. If you run Win98 light you can get well below that half minute, I think it can be about 15 to 20 seconds.

30-40 seconds for booting BSD is quite fast, BTW, I've seen Mac's take longer to resume from being suspended/sleep/I-nap(I don't know what Apple calls it). My Linux box takes about twice as much to boot, I estimate but it might be even more but.

Your figures from you Dell are fairly typical for most Windows machines and like that they are indeed almost unusable, I hate those machines. I think seasoned Windows users in setups like that make a image of the HD in a clean state and "ghost" that back every month or so, keeping files on a different partition. I don't realy know how the average MS customer deals with that. Maybe they see their PC slow to a crawl over the time of two years, then buy a new one or something.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Macs were slow relative to PCs on floating point heavy problems, I assume that is a thing of the past now that they are on the Intels. I would guess that there is not a piss pots worth of difference in the two systems in performance terms these days. As for stability XP has done superbly well by me with one squirrely driver related problem in several years of use. IMHO it is an excellent OS as may be OSX with which I have no experience.

I have to say that my non-computer savvy friends running Macs seem to have more problems with their systems then I and my friends who are running PCs, but all of us are computer savvy.

The nature of existence being random and chaotic some individuals are bound to have a set of experiences that are far from the statistical norm. This can lead to firmly held religious beliefs.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, that's a interesting point. I read this comparison some years ago that claimed that Windows users were used to having to fix many small things often and that when something big hit the fan they would be relatively prepared while with a Mac there are (apparently?) less of those "little things" leaving Mac users unprepared for serious problems.

Doesn't sound unlikely to me but I have no idea what that analysis was founded on, if anything at all.

It's also amusing that most Mac-PC debates (which are mostly on other sites...) have changed little over the past few years. It's like people (both users and non-users) still see Apple as the same sort of thing, despite MacOS changing in roughly the most dramatical way a OS could possibly change. I still remember fevered arguments about how consoles were inherently evil and x86's sucked yet the overall relations seem to stay very constant. I'm not sure whether that's due to Apple's excellent marketing or some deeper social issue. On the PC side the amusing thing is that Apple fanatics tend to attack the average PC while anybody who cares to defend the PC will likely do so from his own perspective and I think it's safe to assume James's Windows install is nothing like my own.

So; for some amazing reason differences in Mac installs are hardly perceived (by the mainstream flame-war) in time while with Windows the differences between individual systems at any given moment seem to get lost once the mortars get heated. That may make for a lousy war but from a game-theory perspective it's really quite interesting. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything like that.

Oh, wait, that was reasonable. My sincerest apologies, we were going to have a war.


I say bomb them all to bits and let turing sort them out!


so sorry.
;¬)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another constant in these debates, if you can call them that, is that people who dare criticize Microsoft are automatically labeled "Mac fanboys," usually by the very people who will swear up and down that Windows is the greatest achievement in the history of mankind.

Pot calling the kettle black, as far as I'm concerned.

Macs might suffer a bit in the performance department from applications that have a long Windows pedigree and which have been poorly optimized for OSX when ported to Mac. The same could be said for Mac apps that get ported badly to Windows, but there are a lot fewer of those.

I still say that if OSX ever became untenable for me, I would prefer go to Linux. But it might be impossible for me because of text dictation. I really depend on this because of long-standing chronic pain issues. Windows is actually ahead of the pack in this regard with Dragon NaturallySpeaking. OSX has iListen from MacSpeech, which is clunkier than Dragon but still usable. Apparently nothing like this exists for Linux, which is an insurmountable obstacle for me.

Philosophically I agree much more with Linux but I'm not going to put myself back into a relapse situation over it.

James

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I tend to search for a benign dictator to decide things for me, so that I don't have to worry my little head about stupid details like drivers, html compatibility, health care etc. I think Apple is currently doing the best job at being my computer dictator, and I feel safe and lazy in its company to a higher degree than with the MS PC at my workplace (which sometimes needs a couple of minutes to delete a 100kB file on my local harddisk). Linux is pure anarchy, and makes me feel lost, alone and stupid.

The guy by the desk next to me at work uses nothing but OpenBSD at home, he says. There are too many choices.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:

I still say that if OSX ever became untenable for me, I would prefer go to Linux.


Hey James, my brother (who incidentally is also called James hehe Shocked ) reckons that the next big thing is something like Smalltalk. Apparently there is quite a sturdy following of Squeak users in the UK as we speak, which is cool because as you know SC is basically Smalltalk (kind of).

But anyway, what happened to this guy from Finland? Was he hoping for a flamewar?? Rolling Eyes Laughing

Hey otcx! where are you??

PS, My Mac is well stable. It's the MS apps that always seem to fail, and the ones that look like PC apps pretending to be OSX apps, but to be honest, it's what you are used to at the end of the day.

BUT, I really want a computer that works the way I want it to work, with applications that work the way I want them to work. OSX, XP, Linux etc etc- none of these currently offer me this. I also want it to be piss-easy to create apps. I think some of the stuff in Xtools is definately pointing the way towards this. You just have to look at Quartz Composer for a start. QC is f**king cool! Perhaps Leopard will bring us more?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
I also want it to be piss-easy to create apps.


Absolutely! A cool democratic power-to-the-people thing would be that more people understood and were able to recreate the applications that rule our world. If people understood how easy it is to make,say, a word processor or file manager (and make it run effectively), they would view MS Word and Explorer with the disgust it deserves.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Hey James, my brother (who incidentally is also called James hehe Shocked ) reckons that the next big thing is something like Smalltalk. Apparently there is quite a sturdy following of Squeak users in the UK as we speak, which is cool because as you know SC is basically Smalltalk (kind of).


Heh heh Smile And this guy - http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/ObjectsHaveFailed.pdf - reckons that everything that's wrong with object-oriented programming today is because Java and C++ tried to glom static typing onto the original OOP concept (in which nothing is statically typed - you work with an object's interface, not its specific class), watering the concept down and making it a lot harder to use. I'm inclined to agree. Java is ass-ugly. But, like M$, it has become a technologically inferior yet widespread standard.

James

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
...everything that's wrong with object-oriented programming today is because Java and C++ tried to glom static typing onto the original OOP concept (in which nothing is statically typed - you work with an object's interface, not its specific class), watering the concept down and making it a lot harder to use. I'm inclined to agree. Java is ass-ugly.


While learning C# I've been thinking this very same thing (about static typing). But I attribute it to how much most programers hate to learn a really new language. C++ was to ease C programers into OOP with minimal kicking and screaming. C# is an attempt to clean up the most egregeous problems of C++ with a language that C++ programers can be herded into.

But as we all know, Common Lisp with CLOS is what we should really be using Wink

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

BTW I happen to know that God's dog, Desdemona, prefers PCs.


Finally somebody has something valuable to contribute to this thread.

thanks

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Mac is slow pc is fast.
Mac is unstable pc is not.
Mac is expensive pc is not.


Very Aristotelian, not quantum existential, communication.

E-Prime's relevance to this is obvious.

Let's rephrase:

Some people experience PCs as fast, stable and inexpensive; Macs not so. Others have different experiences.

I have several PCs.

One very fast and one not.
One expensive and one not.
One stable and one not.

I would guess someone with a lot of Macs might say exactly the same thing about their Macs.

Anyhow, all experiences are all experiences.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the MS Visual Studio IDE is a fun place to work--I just love it*. But I have no experience with other contemporary IDEs for comparison, I'm just judging by my experiences with DEs and IDEs which are now long out of date. So has any body used both Apple's and MSs recently and have an opinion?

*OK it's a real bitch that there's not Common Lisp .NET ... yet.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Quote:
Mac is slow pc is fast.
Mac is unstable pc is not.
Mac is expensive pc is not.


Very Aristotelian, not quantum existential, communication.

E-Prime's relevance to this is obvious.

Let's rephrase:

Some people experience PCs as fast, stable and inexpensive; Macs not so. Others have different experiences.

I have several PCs.

One very fast and one not.
One expensive and one not.
One stable and one not.

I would guess someone with a lot of Macs might say exactly the same thing about their Macs.

Anyhow, all experiences are all experiences.


Hey, you got it exactly. Why am I not surprised?

There's a matrix you could draw. On one side would be the hardware, on one side the software, and on the third side (this is a 3D matrix) you'd see a time response measurement.

Or, wait! I could draw a matrix of how fast my learning curve works. Or, how long my machine stays running. Or, how many times I have to reboot after an upgrade (ok, this is about even, they all suck at this).

but I like the first matrix the most. Because for any representative hardware platform, for a random distribution of users, you will have a fairly random distribution of experiences. Funny how obvious that works out.

OK, so snarky comments aside, I know mac users other than Kassen who have had bad experiences, so I can be more objective. This includes my wife, who is a committed Mac user.

I think that whatever works for you, works. I think that if it doesn't work, you should look for alternatives. That is, of course, your choice.

I use 3 operating systems at home. And I have good and bad experiences with all of them.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I think the MS Visual Studio IDE is a fun place to work


I only saw a glimpse of it, it seems OK to me in that it does all the tricks you can expect. I'm using Delphi myself and have tried some Java IDEs (Eclipse and that other one) - I like Delphi best, but I've been using that for many years and it's got the key bindings I want (and as long as the key bindings are not right the IDE doesn't really work).

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
bachus wrote:
I think the MS Visual Studio IDE is a fun place to work


I only saw a glimpse of it, it seems OK to me in that it does all the tricks you can expect. I'm using Delphi myself and have tried some Java IDEs (Eclipse and that other one) - I like Delphi best, but I've been using that for many years and it's got the key bindings I want (and as long as the key bindings are not right the IDE doesn't really work).


I use Eclipse on PC and Mac and love it (the first IDE I've run across that looks almost identical on both platforms). Of course, I'm a diehard Java fan, and Eclipse seem to appeal to most of those I meet.

XCode is ok too - I think it follows the look of Metrowerks' CodeWarrior, which I've used for C++ at a past workplace. I tried coding Objective C in it for a while (for those of you who don't like static typing - Objective C is a bit more loose on the typing, am I right?), but then realised that Java has everything I want, and I don't feel like learning a new language just for the hell of it like I used to.

I use Visual Studio at work (alongside Eclipse). I hack C and scripts in it, and that works fine. I'm anti-MS, so I loathe it on principle, but I guess it does the job.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
I'm anti-MS, so I loathe it on principle...


I have principles too.

The name C# is completely offensive to me. It implies a serious misunderstanding of the heritage of the C language. They think it's clever that the sharp sign is the next step up on the musical scale. What a disgusting mixed metaphor. I would suspect that just using C# would have detrimental effects on consciousness. Of course, if one is tight with God's dog, Desdemona, there is probably nothing to worry about. thumright

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My biggest gripe with MS OSs is that they are not mature enough to use till service pack 1. It used to be a joke that they were really in beta till then. After Vista most have learned to take this seriously. And worse, you really need to do a complete reinstall after a service pack up data or you will likely have problems. Or so has been my experience. Yet with all that I am happy with XP--perhaps I am so dystopian that when anything as complex as a computer works at all, I'm happy. Laughing

And thinking back on it that seems to be how they do it with many products, get something out there and then try to make something descent out of it. On the other hand they do keep trying and often get it right (or at least close to what they advertise) ... eventually.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
[They think it's clever that the sharp sign is the next step up on the musical scale. What a disgusting mixed metaphor.


Yea I had to ponder that, C++ is C raised by one, while C# is C raised by a half(step). As C# is supposed to be another step beyond C++ this is very confusing. Perhaps this its their way of expressing the fact that it is a muddled attempt, instead they should have gone to (C++)#, or mixing language ops: C^C pronounced "sea to sea."

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't know about C#, it compiles way to slow for my taste. Tried it in VS and in Delphi. Unusable I'd say, I like code to be compiled before I release the "compile now" key, sort of Very Happy

Any of you guys still read Dr Dobbs? That one used to be a good magazine but I had some subscription expiration trouble in the way back years and lost the connection. It still exists I saw, is it any good these days?

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