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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » OSX as a music workstation
mac vs pc
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otcx



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: mac vs pc Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

20 year working with mac and pc computers.
So mac vs pc.
Mac is slow pc is fast.
Mac is unstable pc is not.
Mac is expensive pc is not.
Just something to thinkin about (i have both Mac and Pc).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Really? My experience is quite the opposite.

But anyway, nothing good comes out of these discussions. People just yell at each other.

So my vote is, peeps, don't feed the troll.

And anyway, if you want speed and stability, dump the PC and go to Linux. So there!

Razz Razz Razz Razz

James

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:

And anyway, if you want speed and stability, dump the PC and go to Linux. So there!


Well, in most cases I wouldn't call a computer running Windows a "Personal" Computer any more then I'd call a Mac that.

Windows actively tries to keep you from personalizing it, with Linux it's almost a given that the computer in question will become a "personal computer" but I bet that with enough effort even a OSX based one can become personal. Paradoxically Linux is used for business use instead of personal use most of the time so is it still "personal" in that case?

I don't think OTCX meant that, I think he meant IBM-compatible. Oh, wait, that's likely not it either because Apple switched from IBM-made cpu's to IBM-compatible ones.

Oh, my, it's all so confusing! I like heated debates and it would be so great to have one and give OTCX what he wants so badly but I can't tell what any of these words mean anymore or what side I'm now on which is really inconvenient in trench-digging. At least there used to be marketing that we could rely on for making our choice for us, at least Apple used to be the opposite of Windows but MS bought most of Apple and now Apple touts running MS Office as a prime advantage of Mac's, MS runs Linux on it's big servers like everyone else and Linux people are quite proud of Wine that will run Windows programs.

How I wish Atari and Amiga were still around!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
but MS bought most of Apple


Really?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey, you seem to be right! It looks like MS sold what it had.

That's weird, I thought that explained a lot of what was going in the current marketplace. Now I'm at loss why Apple would be following a nearly perfect strategy if it's sole aim would be to keep MS in a monopoly position.

Oh, well, I still hope otcx will be able to explain who should be on what side of the flame war he wants to have.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
It looks like MS sold what it had.


I don't see that either, well MS is not in the list I can see that ... but ... the totals seem less than 100% to me ... or more ... ??

What do these numbers mean?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I looked up some articles. There's some stuff going on that I don't understand because I don't know enough about shares.

I still don't trust it. It's a bit too close to Democrats "V.S" Republicans for me.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some 10 years ago Gates bought $150 million worth of non-voting stock in a company that was worth over $4 billion ( at the time ). That lot of shares have been sold off with a profit since then.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Abandon hope all of you! For both Gates and Jobs are reptilian humanoids already in control of....every thing...and vidieo games too... uh I guess that's part of everything...not sure which part...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh yeah, ..David Icke. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Still no flame war! I hope otcx comes back to explain exactly what it is that he means, like this it's going nowhere.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Still no flame war! I hope otcx comes back to explain exactly what it is that he means, like this it's going nowhere.


As I’ve explained I’m a PC person but mostly because the hardware I non-proprietary and I have a “thing” about that. Anyhoo I’ve been holding out against the MS’s .NET framework and sticking to VC++6.0. I will give in to the gravitational pull of .NET when Visual Studio 2008 is released. So I’ve been reading up on it and leaning C# using the free express version. I have to say I’m impressed especially with the fact that .NET is (theoretically) portable to other platforms. And I’m looking forward to the full Visual Studio experience. I do like the way it holds my hand while I program--so sweet. I haven’t the foggiest idea of what IDEs are like on the Apple and so as long as this thread threatens to poop out on propelling poop and stiring religeous hatreds I thought I’d steal it for a comparison of IDEs. Any one here used both Apples and MS’s and what are your opinions on the matter, religious or otherwise?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: mac vs pc Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

 
Poor otcx. Trying to toll, and no one's biting. I have trouble understanding why someone would come into an Apple section and start this topic. Yet... I have a little time to kill while waiting for my next project to be ready, so...

otcx wrote:
Mac is slow pc is fast.

Could you show me your benchmarks for this claim? This is not true in my experience.

otcx wrote:
Mac is unstable pc is not.

This is really the opposite of my experience.

otcx wrote:
Mac is expensive pc is not.

The pc hardware world has many more offerings, that cover a wide variety of cost points with a variety of features and levels of quality. Certainly you can find cheaper pcs than some Macs, but not at the same feature set.

I haven't done the exercise lately but if you go to the Dell site and try and match some Mac model feature for feature, you will probably find that the Mac is not much more expensive, if at all.

-C
 
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Hey, you seem to be right! It looks like MS sold what it had..


I know I´m right. Laughing .


Kassen wrote:
That's weird, I thought that explained a lot of what was going in the current marketplace. Now I'm at loss why Apple would be following a nearly perfect strategy if it's sole aim would be to keep MS in a monopoly position.


Apple has no need for taking out Redmond. Consider that a company like Apple shouldn´t fight a company like Microsoft. What this is about is to gain access to customers that are suitable for the Mac OS X experience and ditch the rest. Why should Apple try to Microsoft? That doesn´t make sense at all. Forget the old platform wars. Forget the old hype.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

As I’ve explained I’m a PC person but mostly because the hardware I non-proprietary and I have a “thing” about that. Anyhoo I’ve been holding out against the MS’s .NET framework and sticking to VC++6.0. I will give in to the gravitational pull of .NET when Visual Studio 2008 is released. So I’ve been reading up on it and leaning C# using the free express version. I have to say I’m impressed especially with the fact that .NET is (theoretically) portable to other platforms. And I’m looking forward to the full Visual Studio experience. I do like the way it holds my hand while I program--so sweet. I haven’t the foggiest idea of what IDEs are like on the Apple and so as long as this thread threatens to poop out on propelling poop and stiring religeous hatreds I thought I’d steal it for a comparison of IDEs. Any one here used both Apples and MS’s and what are your opinions on the matter, religious or otherwise?


Apple has X-code, a set of documentation with a compiler and libraries, you can download it for free when you buy OSX.

It looked pretty good to me, better then MS's offering to be sure, it's based on GCC, I think.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
What this is about is to gain access to customers that are suitable for the Mac OS X experience and ditch the rest.


That's exactly my issue with Apple. I don't feel I should be "suitable for the OSX experience", it's a OS, not a religious calling. It has always been my opinion that my computers should do what I want them to do, nothing else, nothing more, noting less. The computer should be suitable for me, not the other way around, that's what I mean by *personal* computers.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: mac vs pc Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:

otcx wrote:
Mac is expensive pc is not.

The pc hardware world has many more offerings, that cover a wide variety of cost points with a variety of features and levels of quality. Certainly you can find cheaper pcs than some Macs, but not at the same feature set.

I haven't done the exercise lately but if you go to the Dell site and try and match some Mac model feature for feature, you will probably find that the Mac is not much more expensive, if at all.


Dell is expensive, all PC owners and users that I know roll their own. Mac has some good parts but other ares where it's lagging. All but the most expensive models of desktops from Apple come with budget video-cards. If you want to put your own video card in you will need to go with the most expensive model and even then I wonder whether you will be able to find drivers, with Apple laptops you have basically two choices of video cards, about 1000 bucks apart. I'm not sure what kind of video card a 1000 bucks buys you on Windows these days but I imagine it to be quite advanced.....

Video card drivers are a very annoying thing, these days. If you want high-end 3d performance you are basically stuck with Windows.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: mac vs pc Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Dell is expensive, all PC owners and users that I know roll their own.


If you are going to compare some manufactured product against a build it yourself option, of course the build it yourself will always be cheaper (at least in materials cost.)

I built one PC, and I have lots of friends who do so, but I would much rather spend a little more, and conserve my time.


Quote:
If you want high-end 3d performance you are basically stuck with Windows.


I think it's really too bad that the games market is driving video card development, these days. I would much rather get a card with great 2d performance and compositing of alpha channel graphics. If it had OK 3d performance too, that would be great.

Unfortunately, what I seem to be able to get at the high end of the video card market, is great 3d performance, coupled with OK 2d performance.

The video card is rarely, if ever, the limiting factor in what I can do on a computer.

-C
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Apple has X-code, a set of documentation with a compiler and libraries, you can download it for free when you buy OSX.

It looked pretty good to me, better then MS's offering to be sure, it's based on GCC, I think.


Yep, is based on GCC. Objective C looks interesting. I still miss dynamic typing from my time with lisp. But I really can't tell anything about the IDE. What do you see as its major advantages over visual studio.

BTW I happen to know that God's dog, Desdemona, prefers PCs.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: mac vs pc Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:

I built one PC, and I have lots of friends who do so, but I would much rather spend a little more, and conserve my time.


For me the main time-sink in having a new computer is installing the OS, drivers and software. I don't think I've ever seen a off-the shelf computer where that was done right. Actually screwing together the components is easy and takes only a hour or two, in my experience, and at least at that stage you know for sure what you are getting. I've seen cases where pre-build computers didn't even contain what they were advertised to contain so this can speed up the install process, in my experience.

One friend of mine once had a shop-keeper open the case before paying for the computer to verify the parts. That one could be send back immediately (wrong video card, wrong HD), resulting in a multi-day delay. You don't get that when buying parts.


Quote:
I think it's really too bad that the games market is driving video card development, these days. I would much rather get a card with great 2d performance and compositing of alpha channel graphics. If it had OK 3d performance too, that would be great.

Unfortunately, what I seem to be able to get at the high end of the video card market, is great 3d performance, coupled with OK 2d performance.


Yes, I agree, but there is more to 3d then games. I'm mainly interested in algorithmic 3d visualizations and to a lesser degree in helping develop a custom computer aided design application for architectural use.

Vista is out of the question, so that means a Mac (strange to have to pay ten to 15 times as much MS-tax suddenly and not even to MS...) but I seriously wonder how much those macbook pro's will be able to take in this regard. A external rack-mounted videocard would be a good idea, like we have with soundcards, but nobody makes those for reasons I can't quite understand.

Quote:
The video card is rarely, if ever, the limiting factor in what I can do on a computer.


It is for me on my laptop though, as that one has shared memory. Another issue I have with modern video-cards is that you can't turn down the colours to just B&W, that could save a lot of bandwith and most of the time I don't need colours. I don't understand how that could be so hard to implement but none of them can.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Yep, is based on GCC. Objective C looks interesting. I still miss dynamic typing from my time with lisp. But I really can't tell anything about the IDE. What do you see as its major advantages over visual studio.


It's not by MS :¬)
Oh, and "visual studio" has "visual" in it's name and I'm allergic to that.

Also, Visual Studio needs SP2, I'm allergic to that as well.


Frankly there is very little in modern computing that I don't hate but the one time I saw Xcode it looked very nice and clean, actually it was basically black text on a white background, distinctly non-offensive and un-apple-like. (I know I'm not being reasonable)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: mac vs pc Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
For me the main time-sink in having a new computer is installing the OS, drivers and software. I don't think I've ever seen a off-the shelf computer where that was done right.

Other than my MacBook Pro, where I wanted to partition the disk so that I could have a Boot Camp partition, I haven't had to mess with that stuff on any recent Mac. I suppose if I was short on disk space, I could strip out some language support, or something, but generally Macs have a reasonable install out of the box. Installing apps is still a PITA, though.



Quote:
Actually screwing together the components is easy and takes only a hour or two, in my experience, and at least at that stage you know for sure what you are getting.

Yeah but to get to that point, you probably spent a couple of hours researching and buying parts.



Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately, what I seem to be able to get at the high end of the video card market, is great 3d performance, coupled with OK 2d performance.


Yes, I agree, but there is more to 3d then games. I'm mainly interested in algorithmic 3d visualizations and to a lesser degree in helping develop a custom computer aided design application for architectural use.

There are certainly good uses for 3d, no question. It's just that most of those fancy 3d cards spend most of their time rendering 2d GUIs in a mediocre manner.

Quote:
... I seriously wonder how much those macbook pro's will be able to take in this regard.

My MacBook Pro has a RadeonX1600, which was not that bad a card when it came out. Macs seem to often be about a generation behind in graphics cards. I guess can live with that.

-C
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
bachus wrote:
Yep, is based on GCC. Objective C looks interesting. I still miss dynamic typing from my time with lisp. But I really can't tell anything about the IDE. What do you see as its major advantages over visual studio.


It's not by MS :¬)
Oh, and "visual studio" has "visual" in it's name and I'm allergic to that.

Also, Visual Studio needs SP2, I'm allergic to that as well.


Frankly there is very little in modern computing that I don't hate but the one time I saw Xcode it looked very nice and clean, actually it was basically black text on a white background, distinctly non-offensive and un-apple-like. (I know I'm not being reasonable)


" At the heart of Xcode 2.4.1 is a graphical workbench that tightly integrates a syntax-highlighting text editor, " Doesn't sound like black on white.

BTW I love the color syntax highlighting available in the MS editors. It is completely customizable by the way--you can choose your very own colors for each syntactic category or just old timey black on white.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: mac vs pc Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:
Other than my MacBook Pro, where I wanted to partition the disk so that I could have a Boot Camp partition, I haven't had to mess with that stuff on any recent Mac. I suppose if I was short on disk space, I could strip out some language support, or something, but generally Macs have a reasonable install out of the box. Installing apps is still a PITA, though.


Well, then you are lucky. My idea on "reasonable" is slightly different. I'm of the opinion that every thing that can't be positively identified as "essential" should be deleted.

according to this;
http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html
OSX requires 3GB!!!!????

That's even more then Windows XP. 500MB is the absolute max for a OS, IMHO, and that's only with some reluctance, on some level I still feel a OS should fit on a floppy.


Quote:

Yeah but to get to that point, you probably spent a couple of hours researching and buying parts.


True, but when comparing pre-fab computers you have to compare all the models, notice you can't get the combination you want and compromise towards as system that lacks some of the things you want. Comparing all those models from all those brands, then figuring out hard to find stuff like "what controller is behind that USB/Firewire/Cardbus port" so you will know what soundcards works takes even more time. Many shops don't even list such things.


Quote:

My MacBook Pro has a RadeonX1600, which was not that bad a card when it came out. Macs seem to often be about a generation behind in graphics cards. I guess can live with that.


That's fair, but in that price range I was kinda hoping for a little more then "only a generation behind, I'll make do", especially if the card that's "only a generation behind" comes at a rather steep mark-up compared to high-end stuff.

It's become a rather draining quest, this looking for a suitable new laptop, from time to time I'm considering simply giving up and sticking with what I have until it breaks. I can't find anywhere whether OSX will keep working after you delete ugly and useless stuff like the "finder" and the "dock", for example.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bachus, code highlighting I like too. Sorry about that confusion. I looked up some screenshots and it seems now like what I saw and liked might've just been the documentation.

I just saw this;
http://zovirl.com/2006/07/xcode_pics/xcode.jpg

And that has to be the most childish, incompetent interface for programming I ever saw. The texts below the buttons doesn't even fit and those scrollbars look like somebody experimented with blue toothpaste all over the screen. Maybe Apple thought toothpaste would be a good conceptual match for female-hygene-product-styling.

Ok, I take it back, that'll teach me to think something is ok after just having been shown it quickly late at night. Excuse me for this detour, back to hating everything.

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