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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:36 am Post subject:
triggering and gate with vco questions |
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If i plug a trigger out straight into the vca's cv input, will it cut the notes when i take my hand off the key or does the vca HAVE to get its cv from the adsr/ar gen?
can you put a gate into a vca?
my problem is this: i built a vca and a ad gen. but as soon as i try to hook in a trigger or gate out from the paia midi2v into the vca or ad gen, nothing happens. i know there is a signal as a series of clicks.
my reason for wanting to just try plugging it into the vca cv ins, is it would allow me to use less parts, which means less troubleshooting. i know the vca works (RAY WILSONS WP20 VCA) AND i HAVE TRIED the soundlab ad gen, but with no luck.
thanks as usual
sorry for all the questions but i have a show this week so i am trying to get things working. _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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etaoin
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 761 Location: Utrecht, NL
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:34 am Post subject:
Re: triggering and gate with vco questions |
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loss1234 wrote: | If i plug a trigger out straight into the vca's cv input, will it cut the notes when i take my hand off the key |
No, probably well before that. Trigger is just a short pulse that is triggered by the key press.
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can you put a gate into a vca?
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Yes. That will give you sound that goes on and off with the key, much like an organ. _________________ http://www.casia.org/modular/ |
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factus10
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 158 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:47 am Post subject:
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loss,
the trigger should go to your AD/ADSR module: it triggers (no pun intended) the AD/ADSR cycle.
the CV out from the AD/ADSR goes to the VCA.
Plugging the trigger into the VCA should generate a series of clicks, one for each time you play a key.
Think of it as a very short gate signal. The gate starts at 0v, rises instantly to 5v/10v/whatever, stays there as long as you hold the key, then falls instantly to 0v.
If you applied a gate signal to your VCA, you'd hear: nothing, half (5v) or full (10v) volume, then nothing when you release the key. It's kind of like an A(Hold)D with instant attack and instant decay.
The trigger spends a lot shorter time at full voltage, so all you'll hear is a click. |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:04 am Post subject:
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ok
so how should i go about narrowing down the problem???
when i listen to the trigger or gate outs of my midi2cv module, i hear clicks. so i know that works.
and when i hit the manual trigger button on my soundlab ad gen, it sent a cv to the vca and i got a nice shaped note. BUT when i try to combine the 2, i get nothing. THe midi2cv doesnt do anything when i plug it into the trigger in of the ad gen or into the vca.
so should i try a different envelope gen?
or a different vca?
what sort of voltage should my env gen be putting out for the vca?
this is very confusing as this is the first time i have ever tried sending any gate or trigger to anything is also when i am troubleshooting three items to make sure they all work.
thanks _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:19 am Post subject:
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loss1234 wrote: | so how should i go about narrowing down the problem??? |
When you take a wire and connect it to V+ one one side and then touch the X3 input on the soundlab you should get the same action as you get from pushing S1.
When that's the case the soundlab part seems to be OK and the keyboard must be suspect, or the way it is connected. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:31 am Post subject:
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No, I'm not saying that at all. I said to take a wire and use that to put a 9V pulse on the X3 input and that should do the same thing as when you would press the button. Do NOT remove the button !! _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:52 am Post subject:
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alright but can you tell me if there is a way to make a trigger input instead of the button on the soundlab ad gen? or should i just make some other ad gen?
all i want to do is use the trigger outs on my mid2cv to trigger an envelope. As i said, the soundlab env gen is working fine. all modes work except i cant seem to find a way to get trigger in.
obviously there is the gate in jack but thats not what i need either. I need a way to make the button section be turned into something that gets closed by a jack. is that silly?
thanks _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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Nosferatu
Joined: Jul 27, 2007 Posts: 234 Location: Planet Rock.
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:54 am Post subject:
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Remove the button, remove the button , don't listen to them. |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:59 am Post subject:
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????
what?
no i dont want to break anything if people thing it will break it or something. i just want a working ad gen.
i dont need the button (this isnt actually a soundlab, just the ad gen and a vco from it and the vca from the wp20)
all i wondered was if the button section could be turned into an input for trigger. if so it must be done. this is still on breadboard and i am about to solder it up for a show so i need to get some kind of trigger working or my show is just going to be one long continuous note!!
thanks _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject:
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loss1234 wrote: | I need a way to make the button section be turned into something that gets closed by a jack. is that silly?
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No that's not silly
http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth/SOUNDLABMINISYNTH/soundlab.html
has the circuit consisting of D7, D8, R1, R199 and Q8 which does exactly that, so I don't understand your question really. Didn't you build that part? _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject:
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i plugged the trigger out straight into the vca's cv in, and as i turned the offset pot, i was able to hear the notes start to get chopped in time with the music. now except for the low frequency clicks i could faintly hear mixed in with the notes, it sounded great.
does the wp20 cv in not filter out the triggers very well or does this go back to the issue that cv IS audible unless its sub audible?? or can i use a buffer to isolate the vca from the sound of the trigger??
thanks
wow just when i was starting to think things made sense, a whole new area of complication. but it is very exciting to get so close. i now hAVE a keyboard working and a vco and filter of my ow building
thanks _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject:
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loss1234 wrote: | yes blue hell,i am using the complete ad gen circuit. my mistake. i was confused about x3 for a moment.
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Ok, so you said you got a good envelope when you push the buton. That's good, a lot is working OK then.
Now as the circuit around Q8 should do exactly the same as pushing the button the next thing should be to try if this is the case or not. You can try this by applying a positive voltage to X3. that positive voltage can be V+.
So if you take a wire and connect one end of that wire to V+ and the other end to X3 does that do the same thing as pressing the switch or does it not? _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject:
soundlab AD? |
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Mebee I'm looking at the wrong thing, but I don't see any envelope generator on the SoundLab except an AR generator. I don't see any AD circuit.
Ian |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject:
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Whatever. It just seems to me that if you want an AD envelope, then you should use an AD envelope generator. |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject:
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i am new to all of this. so i didnt know that. the soundlab ar gen does have a trigger/gate switch though so this is why i thought that it would take a trigger.
I have NEVER hooked up a gate/trig signal to an envelope of any kind before so this is all new to me AND i am troubleshooting at the same time.
IT IS IMPORTANT that I know just how many volts a gate and or trigger signal is supposed to be, because maybe my paia midi2cv isnt putting out enough volts.
thanks so much for everything _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject:
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loss1234 wrote: | what does trun mean (truncate wire?)
and x and y are inputs? |
The "truncate" function cuts off the long tails of the envelopes. For use in VCO frequency chiffs, etc. You can leave the switch and the diodes below it out ... just connect the diodes to the left together and to the opamp output.
"x" and "y" are inputs for ancillary circuits. Just ignore them.
I've had a couple of these units in my system for many years. They will trigger on very short pulses. Ray's design, OTH, requires the trigger pulse to discharge a cap to fire the flipflop.
Quote: | the soundlab ar gen does have a trigger/gate switch though so this is why i thought that it would take a trigger. |
Yes, it will do an AD envelope generated by the switch via your finger (provided the unit is in the correct mode). But the X3 input is marked "gate in", with no indication whether an electronic trigger pulse will fire it. It may just be that the trigger pulse from your piai thingie isn't strong or wide enough to fire this input. You cannot make a short trigger pulse with your finger. Of course, they don't give any specs for this, and there doesn't seem to be any industry standard, so we are flying blind.
Ian |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject:
working!!!! |
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ok
i figured it out.
one, it looks like on the vca i am using (the wp20 vca) there is an offset pot. i had this turned all the way to the right (which would be full control from cv, not constant from 9v)
it seems that 1st this needs to be turned more toward the middle.
second, gate AND TRIGGER will work with the soundlab eq, but i had to use a new jack (bad jack) AND i had to bypass the input diode and resistor.
but now it works like a charm EXCEPT-how do you implement high note order priority or low note order priority like on lots of old synths? in other words when i hold two notes, i cant get them to switch back and forth as i take one finger off (you know that old trick??)
and i cant get portamento either......is there a way to do this kind of stuff with a midi to cv box??
i guess the more i learn and do, the more i learn i need to learn
i will be trying that fritz schematic as soon as wed passes and my show is over with.
looks like a great circuit.
thanks to all!!!!! _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject:
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That's a neat circuit, Ian
bruce |
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject:
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RF wrote: | That's a neat circuit, Ian
bruce |
Thanks! Nice and simple -- one chip and two functions. I never understand why everyone thinks they have to use logic chips any time there is a logic function. With a bit of thought an opamp circuit can usually be made to do the job.
I also have an opamp XOR circuit for combining pulse trains and I am going to look into using it with regular analog signals, perhaps with a variable logic threshold.
Ian |
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