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triggering and gate with vco questions
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: triggering and gate with vco questions Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If i plug a trigger out straight into the vca's cv input, will it cut the notes when i take my hand off the key or does the vca HAVE to get its cv from the adsr/ar gen?

can you put a gate into a vca?

my problem is this: i built a vca and a ad gen. but as soon as i try to hook in a trigger or gate out from the paia midi2v into the vca or ad gen, nothing happens. i know there is a signal as a series of clicks.


my reason for wanting to just try plugging it into the vca cv ins, is it would allow me to use less parts, which means less troubleshooting. i know the vca works (RAY WILSONS WP20 VCA) AND i HAVE TRIED the soundlab ad gen, but with no luck.


thanks as usual

sorry for all the questions but i have a show this week so i am trying to get things working.

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etaoin



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: triggering and gate with vco questions Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
If i plug a trigger out straight into the vca's cv input, will it cut the notes when i take my hand off the key


No, probably well before that. Trigger is just a short pulse that is triggered by the key press.

Quote:

can you put a gate into a vca?


Yes. That will give you sound that goes on and off with the key, much like an organ.

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factus10



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss,

the trigger should go to your AD/ADSR module: it triggers (no pun intended) the AD/ADSR cycle.

the CV out from the AD/ADSR goes to the VCA.

Plugging the trigger into the VCA should generate a series of clicks, one for each time you play a key.

Think of it as a very short gate signal. The gate starts at 0v, rises instantly to 5v/10v/whatever, stays there as long as you hold the key, then falls instantly to 0v.

If you applied a gate signal to your VCA, you'd hear: nothing, half (5v) or full (10v) volume, then nothing when you release the key. It's kind of like an A(Hold)D with instant attack and instant decay.

The trigger spends a lot shorter time at full voltage, so all you'll hear is a click.
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok
so how should i go about narrowing down the problem???

when i listen to the trigger or gate outs of my midi2cv module, i hear clicks. so i know that works.

and when i hit the manual trigger button on my soundlab ad gen, it sent a cv to the vca and i got a nice shaped note. BUT when i try to combine the 2, i get nothing. THe midi2cv doesnt do anything when i plug it into the trigger in of the ad gen or into the vca.


so should i try a different envelope gen?
or a different vca?

what sort of voltage should my env gen be putting out for the vca?


this is very confusing as this is the first time i have ever tried sending any gate or trigger to anything is also when i am troubleshooting three items to make sure they all work.


thanks

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
so how should i go about narrowing down the problem???


When you take a wire and connect it to V+ one one side and then touch the X3 input on the soundlab you should get the same action as you get from pushing S1.

When that's the case the soundlab part seems to be OK and the keyboard must be suspect, or the way it is connected.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

so what you are saying is that i SHOULD be able to take the switch button out of the circuit and replace it with a jack? would this then be a gate in or a trigger in??

if that is supposed to work then I will test it right now!!

thanks

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No, I'm not saying that at all. I said to take a wire and use that to put a 9V pulse on the X3 input and that should do the same thing as when you would press the button. Do NOT remove the button !!
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

alright but can you tell me if there is a way to make a trigger input instead of the button on the soundlab ad gen? or should i just make some other ad gen?

all i want to do is use the trigger outs on my mid2cv to trigger an envelope. As i said, the soundlab env gen is working fine. all modes work except i cant seem to find a way to get trigger in.

obviously there is the gate in jack but thats not what i need either. I need a way to make the button section be turned into something that gets closed by a jack. is that silly?

thanks

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Nosferatu



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Remove the button, remove the button , don't listen to them.
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

????



what?

no i dont want to break anything if people thing it will break it or something. i just want a working ad gen.

i dont need the button (this isnt actually a soundlab, just the ad gen and a vco from it and the vca from the wp20)


all i wondered was if the button section could be turned into an input for trigger. if so it must be done. this is still on breadboard and i am about to solder it up for a show so i need to get some kind of trigger working or my show is just going to be one long continuous Twisted Evil note!!


thanks

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
I need a way to make the button section be turned into something that gets closed by a jack. is that silly?


No that's not silly

http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth/SOUNDLABMINISYNTH/soundlab.html

has the circuit consisting of D7, D8, R1, R199 and Q8 which does exactly that, so I don't understand your question really. Didn't you build that part?

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shoot

i thought i got something working but nope


yes blue hell,i am using the complete ad gen circuit. my mistake. i was confused about x3 for a moment.



i wonder what is wrong here??



what sort of voltage should my trigger or gate out be giving on the paia midi2cv???


thanks

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i plugged the trigger out straight into the vca's cv in, and as i turned the offset pot, i was able to hear the notes start to get chopped in time with the music. now except for the low frequency clicks i could faintly hear mixed in with the notes, it sounded great.

does the wp20 cv in not filter out the triggers very well or does this go back to the issue that cv IS audible unless its sub audible?? or can i use a buffer to isolate the vca from the sound of the trigger??

thanks

wow just when i was starting to think things made sense, a whole new area of complication. but it is very exciting to get so close. i now hAVE a keyboard working and a vco and filter of my ow building



thanks

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
yes blue hell,i am using the complete ad gen circuit. my mistake. i was confused about x3 for a moment.


Ok, so you said you got a good envelope when you push the buton. That's good, a lot is working OK then.

Now as the circuit around Q8 should do exactly the same as pushing the button the next thing should be to try if this is the case or not. You can try this by applying a positive voltage to X3. that positive voltage can be V+.

So if you take a wire and connect one end of that wire to V+ and the other end to X3 does that do the same thing as pressing the switch or does it not?

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: soundlab AD? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mebee I'm looking at the wrong thing, but I don't see any envelope generator on the SoundLab except an AR generator. I don't see any AD circuit.

Question Question

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes
the AR generator is what i am talking about

thanks

if there is some other simple circuit i can test and solder up in time for my show on wed than i will try that instead. but for now this is what i am testing.

thanks

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Whatever. It just seems to me that if you want an AD envelope, then you should use an AD envelope generator. Very Happy
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

look i just want ANY envelope. I am not being real picky here. I suppose when I wrote AD, it was just a typo. As long as I can somewhat shape the start and end of the note, I am fine for this upcoming show. What is more important is getting SOMETHING responding to the trigger out CV from my midi2cv.


thanks

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
look i just want ANY envelope. I am not being real picky here. I suppose when I wrote AD, it was just a typo. As long as I can somewhat shape the start and end of the note, I am fine for this upcoming show. What is more important is getting SOMETHING responding to the trigger out CV from my midi2cv.

Well, a trig pulse usually fires an AD EG, no? I don't see why you expect it to fire an AR. An AR EG requires a gate.

Here's an EG that works as either an AD or an AR. Shocked


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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i am new to all of this. so i didnt know that. the soundlab ar gen does have a trigger/gate switch though so this is why i thought that it would take a trigger.

I have NEVER hooked up a gate/trig signal to an envelope of any kind before so this is all new to me AND i am troubleshooting at the same time.

IT IS IMPORTANT that I know just how many volts a gate and or trigger signal is supposed to be, because maybe my paia midi2cv isnt putting out enough volts.

thanks so much for everything

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

what does trun mean (truncate wire?)

and x and y are inputs?

sorry if i am a slow newbie

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
what does trun mean (truncate wire?)
and x and y are inputs?

The "truncate" function cuts off the long tails of the envelopes. For use in VCO frequency chiffs, etc. You can leave the switch and the diodes below it out ... just connect the diodes to the left together and to the opamp output.

"x" and "y" are inputs for ancillary circuits. Just ignore them.

I've had a couple of these units in my system for many years. They will trigger on very short pulses. Ray's design, OTH, requires the trigger pulse to discharge a cap to fire the flipflop.

Quote:
the soundlab ar gen does have a trigger/gate switch though so this is why i thought that it would take a trigger.

Yes, it will do an AD envelope generated by the switch via your finger (provided the unit is in the correct mode). But the X3 input is marked "gate in", with no indication whether an electronic trigger pulse will fire it. It may just be that the trigger pulse from your piai thingie isn't strong or wide enough to fire this input. You cannot make a short trigger pulse with your finger. Of course, they don't give any specs for this, and there doesn't seem to be any industry standard, so we are flying blind.

Very Happy

Ian
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: working!!!! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok

i figured it out.

one, it looks like on the vca i am using (the wp20 vca) there is an offset pot. i had this turned all the way to the right (which would be full control from cv, not constant from 9v)

it seems that 1st this needs to be turned more toward the middle.

second, gate AND TRIGGER will work with the soundlab eq, but i had to use a new jack (bad jack) AND i had to bypass the input diode and resistor.

but now it works like a charm EXCEPT-how do you implement high note order priority or low note order priority like on lots of old synths? in other words when i hold two notes, i cant get them to switch back and forth as i take one finger off (you know that old trick??)

and i cant get portamento either......is there a way to do this kind of stuff with a midi to cv box??


i guess the more i learn and do, the more i learn i need to learn

i will be trying that fritz schematic as soon as wed passes and my show is over with.


looks like a great circuit.


thanks to all!!!!!

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RF



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's a neat circuit, Ian Smile
bruce
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RF wrote:
That's a neat circuit, Ian Smile
bruce

Thanks! Nice and simple -- one chip and two functions. I never understand why everyone thinks they have to use logic chips any time there is a logic function. With a bit of thought an opamp circuit can usually be made to do the job.

I also have an opamp XOR circuit for combining pulse trains and I am going to look into using it with regular analog signals, perhaps with a variable logic threshold.

Very Happy

Ian
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