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281 clone project- taking orders now for last run of these..
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interested in a PCB or 4?
yep
98%
 98%  [ 145 ]
nope
1%
 1%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 147

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janvanvolt



Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Mainz, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i also in for 2 boards.
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numbernone



Joined: Aug 16, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Im in for at least 4 and maybe more.

Bring on the Buchlas

Please
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The Alison Project



Joined: Jul 21, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I will take at least 4.
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Photon



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm down for two at least.
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numbernone



Joined: Aug 16, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

HMMM just noticed the $12 a board possibility I dunno...

If it can come in there I will be more interested in like doubling up to 8.
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Coriolis



Joined: Apr 11, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm, 3080's huh?
I know they're not exactly unobtainium, but I'd happily jump on the "talk him into using 13700's" wagon, as I've got loads of them, and they're not obsolete...

C
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ericcoleridge



Joined: Jan 16, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm wondering if each board is 1 "AD" section of the Buchla Module (plus the bottom or section?). I don't quite understand.

But I have been wanting to somehow reproduce the function of this Buchla module with ken stone slope detectors for some time...


I'd take up to 4, depending on how it works (if I need 4 for one complete module).
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para



Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 276

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Coriolis wrote:
Hmm, 3080's huh?
I know they're not exactly unobtainium, but I'd happily jump on the "talk him into using 13700's" wagon, as I've got loads of them, and they're not obsolete...

C




me too
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ENDIF



Joined: Jul 14, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Count me in for two, pending price.
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

expect 8 ,
maybe more if a friend like to get too
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bubblechamber



Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll take 4
David
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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow- good responses so far! hey and by the way i just bought a Simmons SDS800 with pads for $50! exciting stuff. hope it works...

so first: the ordering stuff (questions answered below that)

it looks like it is a go then, judging by the numbers. i guess the next step is to get a realistic count of the actual number of boards- a "firm" commitment, as it were.

i do ask that it be pretty firm- because i am putting up all of the cash up for the initial order- and i don't have alot of slack in my budget really. the revised board is about 75% done out in CAD (the original was done in Illustrator)

I expect to be able to place the order in the next 2 weeks, with about a week's turnaround, assuming there's no problems. I will then build and test one set to make sure all is good, then i will take money and ship out. all in all, about 5-6 weeks from now. hopefully this is OK by you all.

so, next i ask that everyone that is in- send a PM in the next few days with your desired quantity. i will take that count and get an exact price in order- post it here, and then ask for final revisions to orders...

i will probably get a few extras, but not too many..

i will then send out email confirmation to everyone with my paypal info. if you prefer to pay some other way, let me know. shipping will be standard postal service-

to those overseas, what is the best way to describe the PCB[s] on the customs form? spare parts?

ok now for questions:

Quote:
I'm wondering if each board is 1 "AD" section of the Buchla Module (plus the bottom or section?). I don't quite understand.


yes, each board is 1 generator, plus the bottom section. when building a pair, for instance, there are a couple things you will only populate once- and use jumpers, etc. to select whether it plays the "A" or "B" role in the relationship, and which pot is attack or decay... this is because people may mount these horizontally or vertically, or perhaps not use PCB-mount pots at all. whatever works. there will be mounting holes for brackets/standoffs on the corners of the board- also, power connections can be jumpered from board to board as well.

Quote:
Hmm, 3080's huh?
I know they're not exactly unobtainium, but I'd happily jump on the "talk him into using 13700's" wagon, as I've got loads of them, and they're not obsolete...

C


about the 13700- the PCB is already measuring roughly 3"x4"- 2 generators on one board would, in my opinion, get too big and limit the types of enclosures or panels you can reasonably fit it behind or into. the 13700 is around 1.50 alot of places, while you can still get the 3080 for around 2 bucks. if you really have alot of trouble getting these, i have a few left i could sell at that price with board orders. that area of the PCB is actually already done, so in my opinion it isn't quite worth the trouble.. perhaps in a couple of years it'll be a different story.

anyways, it's useful as a single unit also and i'm sure some folks will use it that way.

aaaannnnyyyywwwaaayyys..

so start sending those PMs. thanks alot- it looks good thus far. i will post up a list of things you might not have in your parts drawer next.

josh










[/quote]
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neandrewthal



Joined: May 11, 2007
Posts: 672
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
The model 281 Quad Envelope Generator replaces models 280 and 284, and features independent voltage control of times, expanded time ranges (.001 seconds to 5 minutes), quadrature outputs, internal looping for repetitive function generation, remote control for digitally aided systems, and combining networks for creating complex transient functions


Can someone translate this into Moogspeak please? Embarassed As far as I can understand, it's a loopable and voltage controlled 2-stage envelope generator? What are some of the most common uses for it?

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Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps a small donation to Don Buchla as well, who is still marketing this basic design as part of his income?

Then again, this didn't stop me from ordering some Wogglebug boards, and Grant is still making that Sad
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
Posts: 1290
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3080's availability - I'll have to do a count, but I MAY have some available for any who will need for this board: I would much MUCH rather do a parts trade, rather than cash. Smile
I'm open to parts suggestions.

If my MEMORY count is correct, I can spare about 10 as I'd like to keep 10 to 20 for my future stuff. (I'm still slowly converting to LM13600/LM13700's.)

Lemme know if any interests. Smile

(Immediate trades that I'm looking for, as an idea - though still open to other offer ideas: 12 position 1 pole rotary switches, new; 1 meg linear pots (1/4" shaft); pink, super bright LEDs; LF412's (or other higher end type opamps, such as those that Ian uses in things. Wink )
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drapdap



Joined: Oct 11, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'd like to have two of these boards of canada, please. Smile

robert
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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Can someone translate this into Moogspeak please? Embarassed As far as I can understand, it's a loopable and voltage controlled 2-stage envelope generator? What are some of the most common uses for it?


yeah, thats pretty much it. well, 3 stage if you count sustain Rolling Eyes commonly used to sweep/modulate things... hah Laughing no but yeah i guess that's the best answer. the inclusion of the pulse output, on-board 'analog OR' circuit [which, by the way, is here a slightly modified Serge "Peak" circuit] and the quadrature mode set it apart some.

these are useful on their own, of course. alot of times, I use ADSR types this way anyways..


Quote:
Perhaps a small donation to Don Buchla as well, who is still marketing this basic design as part of his income?

Then again, this didn't stop me from ordering some Wogglebug boards, and Grant is still making that Sad


yeah, i think we all owe alot to some very clever people! This is, however, a personal PCB-only project of mine offered here exclusively to the electro-music.com community...

and while it is true that the 281e is part of the current Buchla line- i don't think that the existence of this limited-run PCB project will deter anyone who is currently invested in the 200e system from buying the module from Buchla- and i don't think that the 281e sells the system, either. not that this is the 281e!

i'm sure the circuit has been updated and revised, likely with more cleverness! also, the 'remote' control bus stuff doesn't exist here- all that fancy stuff.

so yeah i guess i could take Don out for beers or something, we're neighbors! but, of course, he'd still be doin' me the favor Wink

josh
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Fernando



Joined: Dec 30, 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Barcelona, Spain

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll get 4. But if they get cheap enough some more.
Last edited by Fernando on Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Coriolis



Joined: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: 616
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PM sent! But uhm..apart from the 3080's, is there anything else that might be hard to find in this circuit?

C

Edit: I see on the schem, that AD821 pnp-pair is used - do you provide pads for discrete transistors, ssm2220, or perhaps 2SA798?
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para



Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 276

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

not to put a damper on things but didn’t realize that this was still an active product of buchla's, and considering that it is, your posted "perspective" is kind of hard to agree with. as much as i would like to have a bunch of these boards i know how i would feel if someone were offering boards for my own active designs, so unless you can somehow get permission or something i'm going to have to cancel my order.

it just doesn't feel right


steven
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Fernando



Joined: Dec 30, 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It feels very good to me.

The schematic is public and we would make boards for ourselves, each.
What Josh is doing is generously organizing a group pcb batch so the boards have better quality than home etching ones and are cheaper. He's not doing bussiness. So it is a favor to some friends. That's why we are together in this forum.

And, this is a very old schematic, no doubt current units will differ.
And current schematics of actual units are not public, we can't build them.
This is hobby stuff... a bunch of people resurrecting old circuits

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para



Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 276

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you are certain that don released them to the public with this intention?

if we can be sure that this won't upset him then i'm cool with it of course. i really want these, but if he's even the slightest bit upset then its not worth it to me.


i'm not being crazy here am i? this is just common decency


steven
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Fernando



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

... I never even thought of asking because I don't consider this to be any competition to his products... this pcbs are not even a product

are bare pcb for own experimentation...!
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bubblechamber



Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm going to have to aide with Fernando and Josh on this. Even if those schematics were not released for public consumption, they are very old and very likely do not reflect the current 281e which probably a microprocessor like much of the new e series. if Josh were offering commercial modules of the 281 or scanning and redrawing the original PCB, maybe that would be a problem, but Plan B has used that essentially as their business plan from the beginning and Doepfer has released several modules based on Buchla designs as well. And it seems unlikely that these 281 boards will impact any future sales of 281e modules.

just some general questions: How long does copyright last on a schematic from the 60's or 70's(like Moog and Buchla)? and what if that company no longer exists(like Aries or Polyfusion)?

This seems to be a pretty complicated subject and there are tons of cloned gear on the market, are they all working in a gray area? I find it hard to believe that Roland gave permission to all the 303 clone makers.
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para



Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 276

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i can agree with most of that and i myself will be cloning long out of production designs to some extent, its just the idea that its an active design thats getting under my skin. no this isn't taking any potential sales from buchla (as far as we know) but that has nothing to do with it. i understand that there is a good chance that the design has slightly changed over time as well but that is also besides the point. the simple fact is that someone spent a lot time and effort to design this circuit and in one way or another he IS still relying on the design for income

if this were someone that you can easily get in touch with and interact with like say ... thomas henry and he was STILL selling the product in some way, shape or form would you feel the same way regardless of whether you could afford his version or not?


if roland were still making an analog 303, even if it were version 50, you can believe that they would put a stop to all the cloning.

some people say that 20 years is the life of a u.s. patent but i have no idea myself. i can’t believe anybody’s rant about it, and they are often renewed, or have odd circumstances so i’m not sure what to believe

i’m really not trying to be difficult or talk anyone out of this. i want them too!!!….. but i have a conscience



steven
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