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281 clone project- taking orders now for last run of these..
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interested in a PCB or 4?
yep
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Steven, you could try contacting Don Buchla and asking him for permission if you wanted? I've done this with others before- out of courtesy Idea
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Fernando



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

imho,

Josh should ask for his own boards if he likes.

Steve sells products on the internet.
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Sound



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm interested in 8.

Is this envelope re-trigable?

In cYcle mode, can a new trig re-start the cycle?



Best,

Òscar.
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok, i think this can get kind of silly and off-topic, and i don't want it to. this is a personal project for you to build for yourself- personally. I, of course, do not endorse the sale of this module after it has been built from this PCB, nor will i sell a completed module. this is for DIY hobby use only.

I designed the circuit board, and have actually have modified the circuit from the original. i will not redistribute the original buchla schematics- they aren't hard to find. i will, however, have to redraw the parts that have changed.

there is no copyright infringement going on on here, no relevant patent[s] involved- this is not the first time that this type of circuit has been used (nor the last, it is a pretty common arrangement)

I really don't see- outside of the fact that Buchla makes a quad model 281e, that I have to assume differs, technologically speaking- how this project is any different from the many many clones, copies and take-offs that we are all so familiar with- many of which are done FOR PROFIT, which this is not...

perhaps, the fault here, if any?, lies in the fact that i called the project a "281 clone" (ala "292 clone", "258 clone" "291 clone"...), instead of a Voltage Controlled A.R. Generator with repeat. i repeat:
Quote:
(nor the last, it is a pretty common arrangement)


the Moog ladder filter has been done to the death, for instance, and yet it remains a Moog trademark that is strongly associated with it's synthesizer products. but do you think that the fact that it exists all over the place in various forms will deter someone from buying the Moog? i don't, it's built differently. same as the 281e. I guess you could buy one and dissasemble it to fit into your preferred type of enclosure, as it is very likely not a 4.5" x 7" Buchla-sized panel.

steven, you've made your opinion known, if you want to ask for permission to build your PCBs, go right ahead. perhaps you should. but this is my "perspective" and i assure all of you that it comes from a good place.

josh
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numbernone



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I dont think Don will suffer for the enjoyment we will all get from this modified version of his AR. It certainly would not prevent me from scooping up a 200e or god willing original 200 modules if I could afford them.

Maybe somebody should start a fresh topic dealing with intellectual property issues, patents, etc. I think there are a lot of very well formed, and informed opinions on the subject that could be brought under one umbrella. This would also prevent threads like this from bogging down watching the volleys between "sides".

But o man I cant wait for these babies.
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para



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i was about to attempt to contact buchla but then i realized that it could end up raining on everyone’s parade, and felt like a tattletale so i decided to wait for more people to chime in here and see if i was really over thinking this

i don't see how my selling my own work has anything to do with this at all?


i have my own hand built modular made almost entirely from boards made available by members of this board, but none of them are from actively sold designs as far as i'm aware.


fuck it, i'll still take my 4 or more, but i get to play hypocrite and reserve the right to get pissed if i ever see someone else selling pcb's for my work without asking.



steven
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tomcat



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

im in. pmed you
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Is this envelope re-trigable?

In cycle mode, can a new trig re-start the cycle?


yes you can re-trigger the envelope once it has entered the decay phase.

it works the same in cycle mode- it can be configured to respond to re-triggers either like the transient or sustain modes do. of course you could add a switch to have that selectable at the panel as well.
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm

"The term of the patent shall be generally 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, if the application contains a specific reference to an earlier filed application under 35 U.S.C. 120, 121 or 365(c), from the date of the earliest such application was filed, and subject to the payment of maintenance fees as provided by law. ...After the patent has expired anyone may make, use, offer for sale, or sell or import the invention without permission of the patentee, provided that matter covered by other unexpired patents is not used. The terms may be extended for certain pharmaceuticals and for certain circumstances as provided by law."
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fonik



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

topp wrote:
i will not redistribute the original buchla schematics- they aren't hard to find. i will, however, have to redraw the parts that have changed.


i'd thought you have drawn a complete schematic of your "Voltage Controlled A.R. Generator with repeat" to design the PCBs. i'd loved to get the complete schematics with the PCBs. would be very helpful...

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Fernando



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Josh, don't know where you was thinking to manufacture this, but I think Futurlec is a very good option!
No minimum order and very good price (much much better than ExpressPCB etc.)

50 pcbs 102 x 76 mm w/solder mask and silk screen = $6.20 per board + sh
100 pcbs same specs = $5.82 per board + sipping

(shipping would be just $14 within USA)

I think it's amazing.

http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml
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Coriolis



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
It certainly would not prevent me from scooping up a 200e or god willing original 200 modules if I could afford them.


I second that. Can't see myself ever forking over the thousands a 200e costs, so it's a non-issue for me. If there was no such thing as Synth DIY, I'd probably just play my guitar instead of trying to save up for a Serge, Buchla, etc.


C
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Peake



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm

"The term of the patent shall be generally 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, if the application contains a specific reference to an earlier filed application under 35 U.S.C. 120, 121 or 365(c), from the date of the earliest such application was filed, and subject to the payment of maintenance fees as provided by law. ...After the patent has expired anyone may make, use, offer for sale, or sell or import the invention without permission of the patentee, provided that matter covered by other unexpired patents is not used. The terms may be extended for certain pharmaceuticals and for certain circumstances as provided by law."


"MANLEY LABORATORIES is the only authorized user of the original Western Electric passive EQ circuitry previously licensed to Pulse Techniques, Inc. found in the well-known (and still sought after in the used market) antique Pultecs. (Yes, we bothered to hunt down Eugene Shenk in late 1989 or early 1990 in New Jersey to ask for his permission and blessings.)"

http://manleylabs.com/containerpages/eqp1a99.html
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:
fuck it, i'll still take my 4 or more, but i get to play hypocrite and reserve the right to get pissed if i ever see someone else selling pcb's for my work without asking.


Don't worry, your questions were good ones to ask Very Happy

It's surprisingly often that DIY comes near to "conflicts" with patent and copyright issues and one would have to be a lawyer to make sense of all the details involved. This is really too bad as most people involved are in it for the love of music and the machinery needed to make it, and the scale of the activities is like <nil>, commercially speaking.

Anyway, I don't want to clutter up this thread too much, but I think there are some interesting DIY / law / morality issues that were touched here.

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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey sorry i guess i missed this post:

Quote:
Edit: I see on the schem, that AD821 pnp-pair is used - do you provide pads for discrete transistors, ssm2220, or perhaps 2SA798?


yeah i just used a pair of 3906s myself. i used pairs that i had hand matched and stuck together previously- but this isn't real crucial. so no, i guess just pads for discrete transistors- the 3906 has an EBC pinout (flat face towards you)

for the 1N5240 10V Zener (D4 in the schematic) i used a 1N4740, either is ok.

for the 2N4340 FET(Q2 in the schematic) i've used an MPF-102 successfully. i think i also used the 2N5486 without any problems.

for the +10V CMOS supply, i have substituted an LM7810 for the voltage source in the original. **note to 12V users- i have tested this regulator (i believe the one i used is spec'd for 1A, some have suffixes, some don't) under load with 12v, 11.95v and 11.9v input voltages without problems. i guess the rule of thumb with these 78__, 79__ regulators is that the input should be a minimum of 3V higher than the regulated output, but i do believe it is ok- also, one LM7810 (TO-220) can be used as the 10V source for multiple generators.

the circuit calls for the use of the TL064 quad op-amp, the lower-power cousin to the 074, 084. it might be a good idea to stick with this one, or perhaps an LF444- (i haven't tried this one) especially if you plan to build a few in one module.

are any of these parts hard to obtain in Europe or elsewhere? if so we can work it out. i will compile a parts-list as it gets closer to ordering time- we're still some 5 weeks off of my targeted time-frame for shipping.

@ fonik- i just worked from my notes in my notebook and the original drawing while designing the board. i would guess, if i were to ask, that the consensus would be that there be a nicely drawn, easy to read schematic to accompany the board orders- as is usually the case-

this isn't a problem on my end- (i have a nice new (free!) software package called Diptrace that i have to highly recommend. the PCB layout is only good for 250 pins which i just hit Crying or Very sad ) if there's no problem on anyone else's end. the documentation for the project will fall under the same disclaimer[s] as the board does. personal use only, don't distribute, or host it anywhere... blah blah blah.

maybe we should call this the "Model 11" Laughing heheh, only kidding..

josh
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Coriolis



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No problems in those parts for me, I think.

Is that 10 V regulator on the board? If it is, one could power several of these modules with this, and not have to fit each board with it's own reg, right?

C
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Coriolis wrote:
Quote:
It certainly would not prevent me from scooping up a 200e or god willing original 200 modules if I could afford them.


I second that. Can't see myself ever forking over the thousands a 200e costs, so it's a non-issue for me. If there was no such thing as Synth DIY, I'd probably just play my guitar instead of trying to save up for a Serge, Buchla, etc.


Well I quite agree there. The Wogglebug too is being cloned as we speak (Grant Richter doesn't appear to be bothered, anyway he DID upload the schematics for it to the internet).

I've got a Wogglebug (original series 300) and it cost a stupid amount of money. In fact I could have bought a really good small system based on other maker's modules for the money that the Wiard cost- but that money is about right for a system that is pretty much lead and built by one person alone (this is also why I still think a Clavia G2 is a far better buy). IMO, modular synthesis is a rich-person's indulgence and DIY, although not cheap, is a cheaper, more affordable way into it. So my heart is with you Coriolls.

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Fernando



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

>for the +10V CMOS supply, i have substituted an LM7810 for the voltage source in the original

The 78XX are said to induce noise into the power supply lines... (and that you can really notice it)
So my vote is LM317 inclined. It is a much finer regulator.

(here is an example for 8V but it's very easy to set for 10V. Scroll down to 2nd diagram:
http://till.com/articles/QuadTrapVCO/vcocore.html )
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Coriolis



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
The 78XX are said to induce noise into the power supply lines


Well, Thomas Henry seems to think they are quite usable for use in a systems main psu, so not a real-world issue, I guess. Also there is one in the Klee...

C
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fluxmonkey



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fernando wrote:
>for the +10V CMOS supply, i have substituted an LM7810 for the voltage source in the original

The 78XX are said to induce noise into the power supply lines... (and that you can really notice it)
So my vote is LM317 inclined. It is a much finer regulator.

(here is an example for 8V but it's very easy to set for 10V. Scroll down to 2nd diagram:
http://till.com/articles/QuadTrapVCO/vcocore.html )


i second fernando's thought... 78xx are definately noisy & to be avoided.

bbob
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I must say I've never had a problem with any 78xx's either.

I think one has to be a little careful here- to avoid going down the 'hi-fi path' too much, as one could start using coax to wire pots, sockets and switches to boards. It could lead to certain ¨fear of noise¨ overkill! Shocked Laughing

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Fernando



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well, no fear of noise on my side... it was advised many times by some experienced wizards but...

... it may not be so important here since I see the circuit has some switches that may be adding noise into the power lines already (if I'm right, this should be connected to the "dirty" PSU as Ken Stone call it)

when this happens you can hear the "contamination" on the sensitive circuits like VCOs, etc

... this might be the case or not for this circuit (both possible 78xx issues or the switches, etc) I'm a complete ignorant concerning electronics really, I just wanted to warn about to avoid problems as explained...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fernando wrote:
experienced wizards


It would be better to consult technicians about such matters Laughing

Don't worry about the 78xx devices, worry about your wiring and decoupling instead.

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Fernando



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was refering to experienced technicians from this forum and Synth DIY list along the years...

>worry about your wiring and decoupling instead
ok, thank you
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry Fernando, I didn't want to offend you .. it was meant as a joke.
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