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A New Opamp Sine Wave Oscillator...
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Inventor
Stream Operator


Joined: Oct 13, 2007
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Location: San Antonio, Tx, USA
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:00 am    Post subject: A New Opamp Sine Wave Oscillator...
Subject description: That will be described in the near future
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Well, what a nice little spot on electro-music to post about my oscillator. It's a new invention, and new inventions are tricky little minxes, they mustn't be announced too soon. I am planning to publish it in an IEEE journal if it stands up to peer review, and the IEEE requires that all publications be previously unpublished. So I gotta wait, man.

I asked a renowned expert about it and he said it was "adequate" and "no better or worse" than the state of the art. From such a wizard I take that to be high praise, lol. Anyway I've discovered other nifty things about it since then that make it a fun building block for audio devices.

There are no plans to patent the oscillator since there are so many existing work-arounds. There is perhaps some value in patenting it, but I figure in the spirit of GNU and free software that I enjoy so much, how about a free oscillator too.

Also since I mentioned it elsewhere on the site I guess I can say that it can be used as a signal detector, an amplitude modulator, and a filter as well. I think of it as an "elegant" circut, or have I been spending way too much time thinking about circuits? lol. Anyway, it's cool, you'll like it, and its right on the horizon.

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DrJustice



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: A New Opamp Sine Wave Oscillator...
Subject description: That will be described in the near future
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Inventor wrote:
I think of it as an "elegant" circut, or have I been spending way too much time thinking about circuits? lol.

Around these parts, I reckon we all appreciate that there is beauty and elegance in engineering Very Happy

Quote:
Anyway, it's cool, you'll like it, and its right on the horizon.

Great - looking forward to seeing it!

DJ
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Tim Servo



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:46 pm    Post subject: A New Opamp Sine Wave Oscillator... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds very cool! looking forward to seeing what you've got up your sleeve.

Tim (nothing up my sleeve... presto!) Servo
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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You know, My IEEE reviewer said the whole article had to be rewritten "third person omnicient". Well, i'm not omnicient nor am I very good at writing in third person. Maybe I will publish it in EDN as an article. I've been sitting on it and doing nothing for a month and that's just plain wrong. What would you do, go with EDN?

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Kassen
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Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds great!

Can you at least tell if it's a purely analogue trick or if this could be ported to the digital realm where we might get some interesting use out of it? If so I'll help you port it to ChucK, that'd be fun.

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Inventor
Stream Operator


Joined: Oct 13, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It is analog but could be modeled digitally. Perhaps SinOsc already does some of it. It will be interesting to see what if anything people might do with it. It's just a one-frequency oscillator. You can tune it but I don't know how far a range works. The AM modulation might be interesting as I've thought of hooking two together with the output of each driving the AM input of the other, depending on the frequency settings, what kind of an wacky sound would you get? Or is that a standard way to make sounds with today's synthesizers? I dunno, as you know i'm an amateur, just playing around!

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, to put it nicely; perhaps you should look up the word "ring modulator" before you write a official paper :¬).

If you want to hear your wacky sound right now the world is your oyster using two SinOsc's and a gain set to multiply (using ".op(3)" ). It's a well known sound, I'm sure you recognise it from 60's scifi movies or last year's IDM.

Also important is how well the pitch modulation works with regard to keeping a good regular scale and temperature compensation. Those are the topics "pro" oscillator designers always frown and sigh over so if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you start frowning and sighing now :¬p.

I think that's about it for the "bluff your way into the DIY scene" crash-course, at least until next week when you will be expected to talk about "phase modulation" and "feedback", those are important topics to be able to frown and sigh over as well but it's a more advanced sort of sighing.

(trust me, that's how those folks work, you wonder if they ever have any real fun with their hobby at times.)

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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Coolness, so we can use my oscillator as a ring modulator, how nice! I'll have to build one for the heck of it, whenever i get back to building. Coolness. or make one in ChucK with .op(3)

Oh, not to be confusing, the paper is not about a ring modulator, but rather it is about a sine-wave oscillator that has unique properties, like an AM input.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool. .op(3) is just a straight multiply, BTW, so it's also useful for lots of other things.

Anyway, I got the sine idea and the AM input, that's a nice feature, I think.

I just realised I mis-read your proposal and you wanted osc A to modulate the amplitude of osc B and the other way around. I predict that will give odd results. You see; if one of them would be 0 or nearly zero at any one point then next up the other will as well (thanks to the modulation) so that will lead to a feedback loop that will get both stuck.... probably until some noise gets them out of there again? See? "feedback" is a word to frown about! But maybe this isn't so bad for your design... erm, I dunno. I'm not up to pro-level frowning and sighing.

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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen, we're cool! I see that and if I just let thee modulation never approach zero then I'm good. Would take maybe two extra resistors per stage I guess, not too sure about that but good point. I'd hate to build it and have it go dead all the time. Doh!
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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You know, instead of publishing in a magazine, why don't I just make a web page for it and announce it here? These magazines all expect you to write up something THEIR way, while I already have something written up MY way. I could just make a simple web page with a PDF file on it, hmmm...
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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There I went ahead and did it, You can find the pdf file describing the oscillator here:

http://www.freedomodds.com/osc/

Hope you like it.
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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmmm, i've only gotten 22 hits on that oscillator in 3 days, seems kind of low . Do you think I should announce it somewhere else? Not sure what to do here.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

+1 , but that's a double one, I mean I was there before ... you added some nice ASCII art there in the mean time Very Happy

I really can't judge the novelty of your design, but the calculations seem plausible to me.

I don't think you'll get too many hits through this somewhat obscure thread in a sub forum of DIY ... maybe add a link at http://www.freedomodds.com/music/ there are a lot of links from electro-music.com to that section of your site.

Advertisement is an art Laughing

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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, BlueHell, did just that. Good point, you know I'm getting a consistent 100 hits per month on that music page? I just added the oscillator and soon I will add the math/music project song, so there is something fun for now and on the horizon too!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow. I posted it to usenet and they not only criticized it, they misunderstood it and were downright mean to me. What a bunch of jerks. Their primary argument is that is has more distortion than a Wien-bridge oscillator. That I don't mind, but to be so nasty about it. Sheesh. That's what I get for trying to make the world a better place.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Speak up, what did the bastards do Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Speak up, what did the bastards do Shocked
Well, I guess they took an awfully negative and closed-minded perspective of what is actually a nifty little oscillator. At first they failed to even notice any novelty at all until i asked them to present prior art, then they shut up about that and started criticizing the design and even making disparaging remarks about me of all things, lol! As if I had done something wrong by sharing my creativity for free with them. Then I told them off a bit and the criticism reduced to a few final "expert" comments of derision.

So I'm packing up my electronics lab and going to work on some optical art instead. Who needs to be around people like that? I certainly don't.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I found the discussion on the web, and there were few messages actually going into what you presented and a lot of not so useful below the belt remarks indeed. That is, before it went off into distortion measurements.

This is what I made of it :

* No one could dispute the novelty.

* There is a lot of harmonic distortion and it was pointed out that this comes from clipping against the power rails. This seems correct to me, and to you as well I think as as you mention it in your paper.

* There was one remark about the quality of the paper as such, I can't judge that one, I dropped out of university, twice Very Happy

* The practical value of the circuit was disputed, I can see a point there, but I think it doesn't tell anything about the circuit being interesting or not.



BTW, I didn't get the last paragraph, or one of the last ones ... anyway ... the one about locking I mean. It seemed to me that what you described was a high resonant filter coming into resonance, but I see no PLL like locking happening?

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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
I found the discussion on the web, and there were few messages actually going into what you presented and a lot of not so useful below the belt remarks indeed.


Yeah, i guess its those below the belt remarks that I reacted to. You're right on all points, or seems to me, and that "locking in" was just a mention of a possibility of the use of an oscillator as a signal detector. I should have left that off.

What gets me, though is that a reasonable person would look at its negatives and consider positive approaches to solving them. For example, I think that perhaps putting a resistor in series with the output will minimize clipping, but there is no sense. I will not continue if this is my audience. I also mention to them that if they pull the output off of the noninverting terminal, then the distortion is much better, but do they listen? Of course not!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not sure if that would be your right audience, there must be places that are more open minded.

I was wondering if two small valued resistors like maybe 150E or so in the opamp power supply (both pos an neg) would smooth things out. Maybe even larger than 150E, something to experiment with.

Edit: yes you could do signal detection I think.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could be, yes, I think so. The power supply resistors would soften the clamping action, just like a resistor in series with the output would. That's an idea worth trying.
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks!!

i am kind of new to electronics (its been about 9 months of fun!!) but i love any circuit that uses only an opamp or two!!

so if the test circuit in the paper works, i just might breadboard it for fun.

i appreciate you sharing this stuff....dont worry about those usenet people....this is a nice enviroment unlike so many others.

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-------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
thanks!!

i am kind of new to electronics (its been about 9 months of fun!!) but i love any circuit that uses only an opamp or two!!

so if the test circuit in the paper works, i just might breadboard it for fun.

i appreciate you sharing this stuff....dont worry about those usenet people....this is a nice enviroment unlike so many others.


Hi loss1234, welcome to the electronics world! I am also a newbie, having been at this music hobby for only six months. It is very encouraging to me that you might give the circuit a try. If you do, please leave room to put a resistor between the opamp's output node and the driving node of the feedback circuits. That was the last thing I was going to try since I gave up on the Usenet weenies. I'd be happy to help with any problems you encounter along the way. It's a simple, fairly easy project so a good one for beginners. You just have to get your component values right and you'll be good to go. Please feel free to discuss it further, I am here to help.

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

will the component values in the example work ok? i am not too good at figuring out values on my own with formulas (not good at math)

thanks

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