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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Idea for a Trigger Pattern Sequencer/Generator
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Undergrind



Joined: Jan 19, 2008
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Location: Berlin by night
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject: Idea for a Trigger Pattern Sequencer/Generator Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I hope my english is good enough to describe what i got in mind...(i have to use a translationsite and my school english.. so some expressions might be "cyptic") every expression im not sure is italic. Correction wanted!

imagine as a basis a 4 Track Step sequenzer with patternmemory. 4 triggerouts and 4 cv outs without soundgeneration. So thats nothing new. What would be new is a "non chaotic" random generator that is based on some legalities. These legalities can "take over" the playing pattern seamlessly by the turn of a knob.

its an idea im carring with me for some years now:

the figure/number 16 seems to be quite general in the digital world Cool
so is it in the musical world

How about having 4 16bit bytes describing 4 16Step patterns. The value of these bytes will be calculated by a Generator described below

byte1 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 = Bd
byte2 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 = Sn1
byte3 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 = Sn2
byte4 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 = HiHat

In this example the decimal value of the BD is

Bd = bit1=32768+bit4=16384+bit7=512+bit9=128+bit11=32+bit14=4 = 49828

One (of many) Question would be: Is there a chance to implement and apply certain musical legalities or possibilities in algorythmic form so that the relations between the bits can be etablished not only horizontally but also vertically among the tracks?

every legality should have 3 Parameters to play live:
X = case sensitive
Y = case sensitive
Z = number of legality priority

legalities (vertically) like: (relations between the Tracks)
- Sn & Bd never ON simultanously
- Bd & HiHat only in X% of all cases simultanously ON
- never more than X instruments simultanously ON
- ..... (your idea in here:) )
- ..... (your idea in here:) )

legalities (horizontally) like: (relations between the steps of one Track)
- X% propabillity StepY = ON. example: (Bd) step(1) = (80)% This legalities should be applyable on every Step (bit)
- general propabillity X% of ON
- ON every XSteps
- having editable 3bit and 4bit bytes repeating
- mirror every Xsteps
- negative of Track NoX
- delayed copy of Track NoX (Delay=Ysteps)
- ..... (your idea in here:) )
- ..... (your idea in here:) )

Problem:
competing legalities: its possible that one legality can not be combined with the other one.
Solution:
Setting up a priority hierarchy in every storeable set of legalities

This priority hierarchy would be a powerful feature because it will be a very musical parameter.

Example:
You tell the Bd to be ON every 3Steps with legalitiy (horizontally) NO3 X=3/Z(prio)=2
You tell the Bd to be ON on Step1 with legalitiy (horizontally) NO1 X=1/Z(prio)=1
You tell the Bd to be ON on Step13 with legalitiy (horizontally) NO1 X=12/Z(prio)=1

Pattern:
X00X|00X0|0X0X|X00X|X0X0|0X00|X00X|00X0|XX00|X00X|00XX|0X00| Then repeating.
by telling the Sn to be the negative of that and by telling the "Set of legalities" to restart after 64 Steps you got a simple Breakbeat.

next Step: 2-dimensional legalities which is a combination of horizontal and vertical relationships. (haven't really worked that out completely Wink )

you define recurring Squares by the sidelenghts a x b
b=instruments that are taking part in this operation
for example a=3 & b=byte1/byte2/byte4

........._____
byte1|* * * |* * * * * * * * * * * * *
byte2|* * * |* * * * * * * * * * * * *
.........--------
byte3 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
........._____
byte4|* * * |* * * * * * * * * * * * *
.........--------

in this resulting square you can bring in preprogrammed or random patterns:

examples:
100 001 101
100 010 111
100 001 101

a=4

1001 0010 1011
0001 0101 1110
1000 0011 1010

other possible 2-dimensional legalities:
- diagonal lines of ON
- treating the bits of a square (according to a*b) as one byte of a*b bits and apply 1-dimensional legalities (see above)
- switching on and off every single bit of a square in the 16*4 padfield of the hardware. LIVE!!
- your idea welcome here...

3-dimensionality:

every bit beeing ON (and thus sending a trigger to one of the 4 trigger outputs) should have an other value sent as cv on the 4 cv outputs.

this is a value you can use for volume or other things.

The legalities could be here:
- cv voltage according to priority of the trigger-producing legality
( "important" triggers trigger louder sounds)
- cv voltage according to the frequency of occurence of the trigger (also negated) (if you have 3 Bds one after one they can be turned down in the volume ( or having a hi pass filter cutoff a little bit higher so that there is less rumble)

General Thoungts:
- must be hardware!
- legality (I start to hate this word I hope you can find me nother one Wink ) -setups editable at the computer
- possibility to program custom legalities.

Playing:
while legality setupping will be quiet extensive the playing of the machine will be fun by having a display showing the Name of (I begin to say "operation" <--- better word) name of the operation and turning the propability or the priority knob located below this name. Also the LEDed 4*16 buttons always showing the state of their corresponding bits. Manually switching of these buttons will be priority No 0 which is the most important. Also you should have the ability to record whats happening into the memory. After you recorded, every probability should be set to 0% so that you hear the recorded pattern. then you can begin with new operations Wink to go forth.

Memory structure:
1024 Patterns
256 operationcombinations Very Happy

hardware layout:

4*16 Stepswitches (electribe kind) steps are stored within patterns
4*16 knobs (endless pots) values are stored within patterns
4*triggerout
4*cvout

One might think:" how can that be musical?"
I believe (and know) that it can be musical if you really know what you are doing.

puh it took me really long to write this posting.
I hope some of you take their time read it. I know that in programming this would probably a monster project. And about that i know nothing.

Ideas, discussions, smilies ar destroying of my dream highly apreciated

Very Happy Very Happy

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Undergrind



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

another idea would be having a value "Gate length" for the gates at the output. also feeded with operations
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andrewF



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
What would be new is a "non chaotic" random generator that is based on some legalities. These legalities can "take over" the playing pattern seamlessly by the turn of a knob.


This is an interesting idea. Does this control the degree of randomness?

From reading your whole design, it sounds like you intend to write the code and program a chip, have you considered which chip?

check out Ken Stone's Weighted Random Switch, when hooked up to the Analogue Switch Matrix, outputs summed to the on board mixer, you get a semi-random CV output. I say semi as it is influenced but not strictly controlled by the CV signals on the inputs.
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs51_wrs.html
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Undergrind



Joined: Jan 19, 2008
Posts: 32
Location: Berlin by night
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

first of all: Thank you for reading!

andrewF wrote:
Quote:
What would be new is a "non chaotic" random generator that is based on some legalities. These legalities can "take over" the playing pattern seamlessly by the turn of a knob.


This is an interesting idea. Does this control the degree of randomness?


yes! you turn the knob from 0% - 100%. this number indicates the "probability of manifestation" of the Operationsetup.

andrewF wrote:

From reading your whole design, it sounds like you intend to write the code and program a chip, have you considered which chip?


Im sorry that I know nothing about programming and chips. all these thought are only theoretical. But a friend of mine here in Berlin is really keen on learning all this stuff. Which makes "dreamdancers" Very Happy out of us (I dont know if you have this expression in English. In german it means: Someone who dreams without spending a thought on practicability.)

nevertheless Im working really hard on the theoretical developement. because I believe to have a sense for music-theoretical operations. You never know what will happen especially when you share the thought in such a wonderful forum stuffed with geniality..

andrewF wrote:

check out Ken Stone's Weighted Random Switch, when hooked up to the Analogue Switch Matrix, outputs summed to the on board mixer, you get a semi-random CV output. I say semi as it is influenced but not strictly controlled by the CV signals on the inputs.
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs51_wrs.html


thank you for the link. Ill read it now.

next step would be for me: figuring out the idea better with better expressions and some outlines...

questions:
- is the word Operation the right one (better than legality)? I intend to express a kind of tecnical "Law". (help my English Very Happy )
- should i edit the first post with a more exact description of the Idea? But editing a first post is not really good in general I think. what do you think?

.... thanks for reading again.

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Blue Hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Undergrind wrote:
- is the word Operation the right one (better than legality)? I intend to express a kind of tecnical "Law". (help my English Very Happy )


From what I read so far I think I would call it a "constraint driven" process. Or when you want to stress the other side maybe "rule based". It doesn't matter that much, in the one what you allow is not forbidden, in the other what you forbid is not allowed Wink

Quote:
- should i edit the first post with a more exact description of the Idea? But editing a first post is not really good in general I think. what do you think?


I'm sure I'm not the only one who just read it all Laughing

I think it's interesting to see how this idea develops.

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Funky40



Joined: Sep 24, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Undergrind wrote:
first of all: Thank you for reading!

andrewF wrote:
Quote:
What would be new is a "non chaotic" random generator that is based on some legalities. These legalities can "take over" the playing pattern seamlessly by the turn of a knob.


This is an interesting idea. Does this control the degree of randomness?


yes! you turn the knob from 0% - 100%. this number indicates the "probability of manifestation" of the Operationsetup.


the spectralis has something like that programmed in his Sequenzer.
you can programm the probability with a own parameter _per note_
so 100% means that the note is played for shure, 50% would be a probability of 50/50.
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Undergrind



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:

the spectralis has something like that programmed in his Sequenzer.
you can programm the probability with a own parameter _per note_
so 100% means that the note is played for shure, 50% would be a probability of 50/50.


jeah. but in my idea this would the probability of the operation and not only of the simple on or off...

wowowow... ill need my time to discribe it better...

but jeah master funky.. nice to "see" you here. Very Happy youve always helped me with all your proposals and hints..

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