electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Anyone built Jorg's 909 kick PCB?
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: jksuperstar, Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 1 of 3 [70 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
Posts: 524
Location: Denton, TX
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:38 am    Post subject: Anyone built Jorg's 909 kick PCB?
Subject description: I'm having some trouble, my brain hurts...
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm trying to build the 909 kick module detailed here:

http://www.analog-synth.de/synths/tr909/tr909.htm

I etched a board last week, but realized it was mirrored -- I tried to assemble it anyway, but when it was all put together, not working, and troubleshot to death, I ended up just reordering parts and etching a clean, new board.

I got this second board assembled and wired last night -- it didn't fire at first, but after putting in Thomas Henry's Trigger Conditioner between in the input jack and the Trig In of the board, I was getting it to successfully trigger the module from my Midibox SEQ3's gate outputs.

Pitch, Tune Depth, Compression, Distortion, Velocity, Decay and Output Level all seem to be having the effect they're supposed to, but I'm getting nothing out of the Noise Level, Attack, or Tune Decay controls. I can hear the envelope-controlled VCO and that sounds right (aside from tune decay and noise not working)... but it's accompanied by a very high-pitched pulse sound.

I've noticed some indiscrepencies between the drawn schematic and the PCB pdf at the URL above, and I've compared them to the 9090 schematics... I'm stumped for the moment, but I was just wondering if anyone else had built this before, or noticed any similar problems with the circuit.

Thanks!

Lars
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
Posts: 524
Location: Denton, TX
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes! A lead... I was comparing the 9090 bass drum schematic to Jorg's layout and discovered that the 330n and 470n capacitors are supposed to be polarized, which isn't marked correctly on Jorg's layout... and without a parts list, I missed it. I just picked up some .33uf tantalums and .47 electrolytics from the store... tonight I'll replace them and see if this solves my problem. I'll post my results.

If this works, I will replace the caps in my original board too -- it's still fully stuffed. If I get it working, does anyone wanna swap a working 909 kick board for somethin' cool?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
ickystay



Joined: Nov 15, 2006
Posts: 139
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry to say, Roland probably just used tants to save space.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
6079smith



Joined: Jan 18, 2007
Posts: 95
Location: Mark of the Dane
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

creatorlars wrote:
I etched a board last week, but realized it was mirrored


Know the feeling.

I made this about 100 years ago, and I remember having the same problems, although I could get it to trigger okay... I recall some issue with the PCB, but for the life of me can't remember what it was. It sounds like you've come further than I did in that respect, because I couldn't get any sound out of it before I fixed it. Maybe I just made an etching error. Anyhow, in the end I stripped it down to four panel controls (Pitch, Tune Depth, Decay and Distortion) and was quite satisfied with the results. It's still in a box waiting for a front panel. I'll try and dig it out over the weekend and see if there's anything I can find that might help... but I do remember just using any old capacitors I had to hand, so I'm not sure that's the problem. Good luck with it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bubblechamber



Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 276
Location: NYC
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I had those same problems and haven't had the will or the time to try again. glad I'm not alone in this.
david
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ickystay



Joined: Nov 15, 2006
Posts: 139
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have not compared the whole drawn circuit to the pcb.

I do see a 10K on the schematic shown as 100K on the parts placement. It's the one going from pin 6 of the far right TL072 through a 10uf cap to ground.

Also, pin 8 of that same ic should go through a 12K resistor before hitting the junction of the 4K7/0.47.

He did add a 1K between the pulse and attack circuit that is not in his schematic.

Edit: A couple other things. The transistor in the attack circuit (pcb) has a 150K resistor from base to ground- in the schematic it goes emitter to ground. Of course you see he has the out level circuit different.

Damn, now my brain hurts too!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
Posts: 524
Location: Denton, TX
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the replies.

I've been over this board a hundred times over the past couple nights... and, at least, I'm starting to understand the circuit a lot better! Hah. There's definitely some major problems with the noise circuit... ACTUALLY, I think I've narrowed it down to the "noise filter" section. I seemed to be getting some noise from the board's noise section eventually... but no noise was coming out of the "filter" section to sum with the pulse sound (I checked the sound at the pulse/attack output and it sounds right...)

I pulled out my 808 snare to see if I could get that noise generator coming through... and sure enough, doesn't pass the noise filter section, but if i patch it in right at the summing point w/the pulse section output on the attack pot, I can hear it correctly (naturally, it sounds horrible.)

The polarized capacitors didn't change much, but I can definitely notice better response with the Tuning Decay control. All the controls seem to be working correctly now (of course, noise level isn't doing anything due to the mentioned filter problem.) I can definitely hear the effect of the compression knob a lot better with some noise in the circuit.

So, I'm going to really hone in and check for any indescrepencies in the "noise filter" section against the original 909 schematics.

The other issue I'm having is out of the VCO (envelope 1) section... I hear a high-pitched "ding" on top of the correct sound. I'm guessing this has something to do with the pulse output going into the circuit incorrectly.


I found schematics for the original 909 noise source and it is vastly different from the one on this board. Also, if I patch in to the noise source output on this board, I hear the trigger signal too?? Maybe this is a similar issue to what I'm experience with the high pitched ding... some sort of bleedthrough. What would I do to fix something like that? a Resistor somewhere?
'
Anyway, if I can get the noise filter working right (and possibly a new noise source built, if the internal one doesn't start working)... and that "ding" sound eliminated... I'm going to be in business!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
ericcoleridge



Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 885
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Please keep us updated; I'm populating this board this week also, wasn't expecting so many kludges!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
Posts: 524
Location: Denton, TX
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well after several more hours I'm calling this module "done" for now.

It's very useable... but, it's not the 909 kick. Still something weird going on that's preventing that really thick "CLUNK" kind of sound, so maybe it's something in the pulse circuit... however, all the controls now have /some/ sort of effect, and it still can produce a really punchy compressed kick drum sound with a good midrange register (which is what I wanted -- give me a punchy kick and a boomy kick and that's all i need.)

I may pull it back out and try to get it working 100%, but at this point it seems like less hassle to just make my own layout or just build it on protoboard, based on the 9090 schematics... and, I really don't have time for that, and I've already rebuilt it once. I'll keep up with the rest of you who are building it, to see if you can catch something that I didn't.

I was able to isolate and remove the "ding" sound by changing the resistance between the positive input/output pins of the op-amp next to the Tune Depth control. There was a 100K resistor there... putting a 50K resistor in series with it seemed to fix the problem. Something, somewhere, is out of balance. It's probably one or more very obvious component values being wrong. I fixed the suggested ones but it didn't help my problem...

I ended up just wiring the output of the noise circuit directly to the input lug of the Attack knob. This isn't accurate, but it helps by reducing the pulse from a "pop" to more of a natural attack sound.

I'll post some sound samples when I get the chance. Best of luck with this one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
ericcoleridge



Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 885
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

creatorlars wrote:
Well after several more hours I'm calling this module "done" for now.


Just curious; are you able to get sounds close to those samples on the webpage? Those samples were pretty right on, for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
Posts: 524
Location: Denton, TX
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's 90% there. i can post some samples. tune depth, pitch, tune decay, compression, distortion, and everything all work as expected... but noise level is still a little weird.

i'm still confused on whether or not it's a problem with the VCO section or the Pulse/Noise section (they are summed together right before the output.)

I can only get a "click/pop" at the attack instead of a thicker "thud/clunk". It would seem like this is a pulse/noise section problem, but the little high-pitched "ding" was found in the VCO section... and the circuit was correct at the point of issue, i just hacked it by adding a resistor -- so something else, somewhere... is incorrect or unbalanced.

And, it could just be something weird with the noise section too. Like I said, I had to bypass the "noise filter" section (the resisters/caps between the noise output and the input of the Attack control.) So maybe I could look there again. Might be worthwhile to build an accurate 909 noise source clone to test it with, too... the one on this board is something different.

One thing that concerns me... when I hook a jack up to ground, power, everything on the board... i can still hear the trigger pulse very faintly. Which would lead me to believe that there is some sort of signal bleedthrough, and that could very easily be causing my problem.

In any case, it still sounds great. Running through a second compresser would probably add more thud to it. In my case, I'm writing percussion for loud distorted guitar/bass postpunk kind of setup, so I /have/ to have that really punchy kick to get through the mix. And this gets me there. The VCO range is huge, too... from extremely low to to extremely high. I might actually try to add an on/off switch to bypass the pulse/noise section, because it would make a pretty intense thick synthbass tone with just the VCA section.

Totally useful, even with the small issues, but if you build it --- lets compare notes and try to get it up 100% Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
bassmosphere



Joined: Sep 19, 2008
Posts: 17
Location: The Moon

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Did anyone ever post a revised layout of this PCB with corrections?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rlorentz



Joined: Aug 13, 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I tried to build this a while ago (1 year +) and learned an incredible amount of lessons.

I was building it on a big perfboard (3 inch x 6 inch or so) just going from schematics -> my brain -> soldering in part by part. This method works for me in general, but had never tried something of quite this complexity Smile

Anyway, it was a gigantic failure. I started it knowing little of how the 909 kick worked (or any drum synthesis). By the end I at least understood what all the sections *should* be doing, and did have *some* of it working. I think my oscillators had noise issues in some places (so would quit oscillating), and for some reason my noise generator just would not work except rarely. Grounding techniques? What are those? Razz Frustrating...


Funny, I gave up on it, and now just use that PCB as a bipolar 15V supply for my other bench adventures. That part turned out pretty clean and strong (although it could have been part of the issue, so if I have demons later I'll have to keep that in mind..)


Glad (and actually surprised) that I'm not alone on this. I was a bit irritated at the end of it all and wanted to build a 9090, but I hate that it's not in a desktop enclosure...

_________________
Axios Records
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
211



Joined: Jul 18, 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Marseille - France

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is another 909 bd clone,

http://www.bionicdimension.de/_drummachine-909-bassdrum.html

there is 2 differents pcb, one who can be trigged by author's midi interface (same triggering circuit than the original 909), and the other who can act as a stand alone unit (using cd40106).

Hope this help you to debug jorg's module !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stinkebeest



Joined: Aug 24, 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Netherlands
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I finished up wiring this a couple of days ago, and got quite dissapointed
when testing. all I got was hum/noise/berserker crackle...

as it turns out, pulling the unused 40106 inputs high took care of that. on to the next problem. I think somethings wrong around the Vca/envelop sections.
because,well... there isnt's really any eveloped vca action going on... at all.

I now get a continous note, which is pretty fat sounding, but not really what we're after here.

also, about the noise, i am getting some, but really soft, so i think changing that *-marked resistor could do the trick.

anyone had similar problems ? solutions ?

cheers,

Rudi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
Posts: 524
Location: Denton, TX
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I gave up on this one a while back, but ended up getting it to work as far as all the controls responding and the envelopes/vcas working for the click and shell sounds, but I think the source of my problems were in the noise circuit so it never quite sounded like a 909 kick. I'm going to build that other 909 board soon.

I'd check transistor values/orientations in the VCA parts of the circuit...

Good luck!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
reve



Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 147
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lars,

When you say "the other one," are you referring to the bionicdimension layout posted by 211 above?

Curiously (and eager for build updates),
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
Posts: 524
Location: Denton, TX
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, that's the one!

My drum module wiki may be of interest to you:
http://www.lzxindustries.com/drum
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
stinkebeest



Joined: Aug 24, 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Netherlands
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

allright, after letting this thing rest for a while, i had another go at it, and i
actually made some progress.

the constant sounding tone issue i had is now resolved. I thought the
549/559 transistors could be substituted with 548/558. apperently, this
is not the case, and after replacing them, the issue was resolved.

it was now being silent, like it should be... BUT... it also didn't trigger. now, the trigger circuit on this thing is a cd40106, powered with +15 and ground.
now, don't those ic's change the output to high once the input voltage has passed the trheshold of 2/3 of the power sup ? so this would mean it needs a
trigger signal of 10v minimum, right ?

my sequencer puts out 5v triggers, so that's probably the problem. also, hooking up a wire to the sup rail and slapping the trigger input like an idiot,actually DOES trigger the device, and it sounds pretty much like i suppose it should.

once i fixed a way around this trigger problem, i'll check some more,and record some samples. does anyone have any ideas ? i was thinking about a comparator, could this work ?

cheers,

Rudi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
Posts: 3759
Location: Germany
Audio files: 23

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stinkebeest wrote:
once i fixed a way around this trigger problem, i'll check some more,and record some samples. does anyone have any ideas ? i was thinking about a comparator, could this work ?

it would not even work, it would enhance the possibilities. with a comparator in front you could trigger it with any signal.

_________________
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
cheers,
matthias
____________
fonitronik at
FlickR (pix) / SoundCloud (sounds) / YouTube (vids) / Vimeo (vids) / facebook (news)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
Posts: 524
Location: Denton, TX
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think Fonik means to say that "it would work". Smile You might look at LM311 comparator.

There is also a great Drum Trigger Conditioner circuit in Thomas Henry's Electronic Drum Cookbook, which you can purchase in PDF form I think. I used this as an input circuit to all of my 808 drum clone modules.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
furio



Joined: Dec 25, 2009
Posts: 105
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am very frustrated with this project...I stopped trying since one month ago to get this functioning!! The greatest problem I find is that the sounds are very high. As far as I could remember it should be no problem to trig when the inputs Trig&Accent together connected is!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PickNick



Joined: Oct 16, 2009
Posts: 82
Location: BP

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi there!
thx for your nice collection lars!
i found this:
www.bionicdimension.de/pics/diy/909_sd_schematic.png
www.bionicdimension.de/pics/diy/909_sd_parts.png
www.bionicdimension.de/pics/diy/909_sd_pads.png
www.bionicdimension.de/pics/diy/909_sd_pcb.png

i had the same experience with the jorg's 909 version.
i added two 10 uF bypass cap which is reduce the annoying click sound
but this kick is too weak to destroy the local disko:)
i built the bionic rev.A version but it doesn't work for me.
there was an error around R62...and somewhere else...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
furio



Joined: Dec 25, 2009
Posts: 105
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all,
Has someone tried the Rev. 1B?

http://www.bionicdimension.de/_drummachine-909-bassdrum.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
furio



Joined: Dec 25, 2009
Posts: 105
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My Jörg's TR-909 Bass Drum rocks!!! I've substituted only the 6n8 in the middle with a 68n cap, but more resistor's and caps were found to have the wrong values... Interested? Smile should I make a pic and post it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: jksuperstar, Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 1 of 3 [70 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use