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the snappiest adsr eg of the world schematic
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

funkyfarm wrote:
g2ian wrote:
Roland 100m stuff is goodish, but I personally found the form factor too cramped to work with.


i missed that.
I'm sorry I don't understand what the form factor means ?


Small knobs, mini jacks, short sliders. Lots of them, crammed into very little space. Maybe it's just my big fingers.
The 700 seems nice though.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FYI, possibly OT




Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.


http://analog.no/cms/envelopes

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

synth_ollie wrote:
well, I think this adsr is ok, never thought of it as neither very fast or too slow to be honest, Ive never looked at the specs before either


I had a 100m system once myself. And I also found it to be neither this nor that. It kinda worked as it should. Very Happy Same with the 700.

It must be said that EGs in the 1ms range ( attack ) aren´t rare beasts. The dotcom Q 109 serves at 1ms as well. http://www.synthesizers.com/q109.html

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funkyfarm



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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
synth_ollie wrote:
well, I think this adsr is ok, never thought of it as neither very fast or too slow to be honest, Ive never looked at the specs before either


I had a 100m system once myself. And I also found it to be neither this nor that. It kinda worked as it should. Very Happy Same with the 700.

It must be said that EGs in the 1ms range ( attack ) aren´t rare beasts.


Okay !
so, test was done.
So forget about terms like "snappy, short, fast" ; now I would say :

M-140 is the most funky eg in the world !!!

My ears didn't really matter here. (time, sonic considerations)
But my fingers tell me this unit is so good.
As for Doepfer VC-ADSR, sounds created with it were not awfull, but my fingers told me the unit to be a real shit...

Quote:
about Paia FatMan:
The left image is with the "Punch" switched off, the right with "Punch" on. The punch function adds a sustain element to the envelope.

http://analog.no/cms/envelopes

I was interested by this Punch function and wonder if it could be part of the secret...

EG tested are always :

1- Roland M-140
2- Oakley ADSR
3- Oakley AD/AR
4- digisound 80-10
(CEM3310 based)


TEST 1

A, D & R = 0
Sustain = full

for sure a big clue is here...

On the M-140, it was like if Release is not at zero, or input gate was lengthened...
don't know why AD/AR is smaller in amplitude (maybe a diy mistake...) ; this is true for the three tests.

For sure waveform is a big clue :


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funkyfarm



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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

(Both M-140 I have behave exactly the same way, so I guess they're not broken ; maybe mis-trimmed, but there is no trimmer on board...)

TEST 2 : ATTACK & DECAY

tweaking ATTACK and DECAY parameters up to position 4 (upto 6 for DIGISOUND)
Sequence : ATTACK from 0 to 4, return to ZERO, then DECAY from 0 to 4 and return to ZERO.

then starts the real difference « in use » :

because of fast master clock, Attack segment for Oakley ADSR and AD/AR are barely perceptible, a real mess when you turn the knob (mean, position ZERO, you don’t have nothing, just triggered peak at the output, you turn pot, and blamba, nothing again because ATTACK time is set too long compared to fast marster clock…)

once again :
1- Roland M-140
2- Oakley ADSR
3- Oakley AD/AR
4- digisound 80-10
(CEM3310 based)

Last edited by funkyfarm on Sat May 17, 2008 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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funkyfarm



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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

TEST 3 : FINGER FREESTYLE

Freestyle means I tweak all the knobs I can to find a good sound (within twenty seconds).

Once again, recording the first twenty seconds are almost magical memories. (M-140)
Listen carefully between second 15 and 20. This reverse-like could not be get on other eg (not as quick, as funny...)

Last edited by funkyfarm on Wed May 21, 2008 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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funkyfarm



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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
a M-140 dual clone.


The fact is that, using sliders for A, D, S and R, is way cool as you can "read" your adsr setting.
Slider knobs describe the contour of your envelope.

but schaeffer would be up to 50$...


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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

funkyfarm wrote:
TEST 3 : FINGER FREESTYLE
Freestyle means I tweak all the knobs I can to find a good sound (within twenty seconds).

funkyfarm -- It's pretty hard to understand what you are talking about. As far as I can see, you are saying that you have a personal preference for a certain range of A, D, and R times, and that you like sliders. That's fine, and I'm sure any design could be adjusted to your needs. But maybe other people prefer a wider range? Myself, I would say that if I have A=D=R=0, I would expect to hear clicks, and that the Roland is not even working correctly!

Very Happy

Ian
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
It's pretty hard to understand what you are talking about. As far as I can see, you are saying that you have a personal preference for a certain range of A, D, and R times, and that you like sliders. That's fine, and I'm sure any design could be adjusted to your needs. But maybe other people prefer a wider range?


I don't see any problem Ian. If you imagine Funky saying this with a French accent, it makes all the more sense! The French (being the Brits closest European neighbours) are extremely passionate about all things cultured. This is nothing new! Very Happy

If you want a wider range, have a wider range! Idea

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Mooger5



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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey I think it´s a great effort to document the differences. Although patched the same way some synths can be more expressive than others, so I you can´t judge one just by looking at the front panel.
There´s the quality as opposed to quantity that made certain synths famous inspite of being poorly featured. There´s more to electro than just "silly noises". As an example, Junos always sound right in the mix and the Minimoog, which I believe to be the snappiest, punchiest synth ever, did not succeed to this day because of its modulation routings.

I´m always interested to know what kind of circuitry makes these synths sound like they do.

One minor complain: the delay effects are nice but in this case they´re masking the sounds a little, making the differences too subtle to evaluate.

My €0,02.

Last edited by Mooger5 on Sun May 18, 2008 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
I don't see any problem Ian. If you imagine Funky saying this with a French accent, it makes all the more sense! The French (being the Brits closest European neighbours) are extremely passionate about all things cultured. This is nothing new! Very Happy

If you want a wider range, have a wider range! Idea

Oh, there's no problem. Just a bit hard to follow the train of thought. "Snappy"? Oh, no, "funky". These don't really mean anything.

Sure, have whatever range you want. But is it just a question of what you choose for the R's and C's, or is there something more? I'm interested in this "punch" effect, since I discovered it for myself many years ago and have it in the design of my somewhat oddball AD/AR EG. There's a thread about that around here somewhere, complete with schematics.

Very Happy

Ian
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doctorvague



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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't have tons of EG's to compare but I've played a lot of analog stuff through the years and I find Cwejman's EG's to extremely snappy.

His published specs from the S1Mk2 manual:
Attack time: .5ms - 20 seconds
Decay time: .5ms - 20 seconds
Sustain level: 5V
Release time: .5ms - 20 seconds
EG Delay time: 1ms - 10 seconds

They are very musical IMO and feel good under the fingers too!

Two big issues at play here: One) 5V vs 10v output and how the connected downstream modules respond, and Two) linear vs exponential, again the downstream modules' response is fully in play. I mix brands of modules so I guess I'm more aware of these issues. An envelope isn't used in a vacuum, it becomes part fo an interactive sytem. These 2 issues don't come so much into play in a closed system, as curves and voltages are tweaked for that particular instrument (like a Minimoog for instance).

One other issue is scaling of the actual knob you're turning and does it adjust the time as you would expect, or is most of the usefulness in the first 4mm of knob twist? That's more of an ergonomic issue, but still important for musical feel.

I've also got the Doepfer quad EG with 3 switched ranges on each EG and I can almost never get what I want without mixing at least 2 of them and much futzing. They pretty much suck IMO as far as musical usefulness goes. The Cwejman are the exact opposite - they almost always work and sound and feel good.

my $.02
Phil
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Mooger5



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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps it also has to do with how quick vcfs and vcas react to CV.

(I realize in my previous post I had "donated" 20 cents to the thread, instead of two. Damned arithmetics Laughing )
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sneakthief



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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

actually, that chart that was posted is really surprising when it comes to the JX-10. everybody accuses the JX-10/MKS-70 of having slow envelopes, but it's listed at 1ms.

what's up with that?

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funkyfarm



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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
It's pretty hard to understand what you are talking about.
As far as I can see, you are saying that you have a personal preference for a certain range of A, D, and R times, and that you like sliders.


sorry, i mean i've found other tested eg hard to set, because of fast triggering rate.
attack pot. is quickly unusable (i guess it doesn't rely on my tastes)
you only get a weak eg, far away from 5V or 10V

frijitz wrote:
Myself, I would say that if I have A=D=R=0, I would expect to hear clicks, and that the Roland is not even working correctly!


i agree ; and i was about to think Roland has a bad design, so (maybe) it's charm…

frijitz wrote:
Just a bit hard to follow the train of thought. "Snappy"? Oh, no, "funky". These don't really mean anything.


i guess it was a blundering way to recognize i was wrong and velocity is not really involved here...
(I admit I hope the title of this thread to be provoking enough to have some feedback)

to be honest, i hardly understand "funky" and can't translate it in my native tongue.
For me (as many europeans folks i guess), it evoques music related to james brown Cool
Althrough, my nickname funkyfarm comes from a drawning for children, a farm populated with pink roosters, orange ducks, a blue-spotted pig and other weirdness...
so i guess i understand "funky" as funny, pleasant but highly unconventionnal.

Test had one purpose, highlighting that Roland behaves not the same way that all my other envelope generators.

frijitz wrote:
But is it just a question of what you choose for the R's and C's, or is there something more?


i’d really like to have an opinion on this.
DIY ADSR eg sold has kit or pcb has generally 10uF, or 4.7. with 1M pot.
Roland has 3.3uF…
I guess the way controls are scaled has a real impact.
I've went across two design for an integrated CEM3310 eg, both with knobs.
I keep the second, which was more "responsive".

I remember on Dopfer a-141 pots were never set to 0.5, 1 or 2 because we couln't get nothing until pot exceed postion 3 or 4.
This is what we called "loose controls".

frijitz wrote:
I'm interested in this "punch" effect, since I discovered it for myself many years ago and have it in the design of my somewhat oddball AD/AR EG.


can we imagine that a (roland) real bad design could had some punch feature (which "adds a sustain element to the envelope") or the like ?

Last edited by funkyfarm on Wed May 21, 2008 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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funkyfarm



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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

what a post doctorvague ! (one doepfer owner who understands, hugh...feels what i've felt)

doctorvague wrote:
They are very musical IMO and feel good under the fingers too!
Two big issues at play here:
One) 5V vs 10v output and how the connected downstream modules respond, and
Two) linear vs exponential, again the downstream modules' response is fully in play.


I guess i prefer 10V against 5.
for a specific time setting (ATTACK), envelope jumps "quicker" to 10 volts compared to 5. it leads to what i would call "more dynamic sounds".

As far as I understand, even with an exponential eg, ATTACK segment is always linear (in order to start DECAY phase properly), so there is no slope dilema for it. is it right ?

doctorvague wrote:
I've also got the Doepfer quad EG with 3 switched ranges on each EG and I can almost never get what I want without mixing at least 2 of them and much futzing. They pretty much suck IMO as far as musical usefulness goes.


Ian,

what is this mess with doepfer ? based on cmos 4000 ic ? as my oakley adsr ?

Quote:
I can never seem to find the right setting with Doepfer EG's and often mix 2 together at different switch settings (fast and medium) to get sometjing useful
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1234



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have build this ADSR on perfboard with all diodes and transistors substituted with modern ones (1N4148, BC547, BC557) and with +-15V PSU. Pots were substituted with 470k for A (500k will work too), 1M for D and R and S remains 100k. All pots are linear (B). Then I made it with two ranges - for the short one discharging capacitor is 1u and for the long one I'm adding to it in parallel one 4,7u and one 10u capacitors by means of switch. Executed like this it is the best ADSR I have heard - extremely fast (for the short setting), precise and with just right slopes -it is indeed snappy:)!
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phdinfunk



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:58 am    Post subject: Linear Curvature Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"As far as I understand, even with an exponential eg, ATTACK segment is always linear (in order to start DECAY phase properly), so there is no slope dilema for it. is it right ?"

I am fairly certain that's not correct. Can anyone answer this definitively? At least with Oakley's AD/AR modular he made a point that AR mode had a linear attack. Also, I'm pretty sure all those Buchloid FGs floating around the Free West right now have a linear attack and decay...but of course, Vactrols limit everything to something like a 3-5ms attack and a 35ms decay, and impose their own response curvatures to the mix. Anybody got a sample of a Buchlidian Function Gen controlling a regular ol' VCA? I betcha it might click and pop anyways.

Also, to *my* ears some rather nice snappy EGs were the ones on the Oberheim SEMs. As I recall, all the sounds on Sequential's Tom were synthesized on a four voice. Also, it made damnably cool Brass sounds (which seem EG intensive).

---Jiao

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1234



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The replica of Roland System 100M ADSR I have build has definitely exponential slopes. It has even part of the A slope just before D, where it is almost Sustain like - one can call it Hold. This can be heard very well at slow setting. I believe the original behaves similar in this department - there is no reason not to. I have heard Pro One and I prefer Sys 100M ADSR (i mean the replica I have build - it is quite faster than the original with min A around 0,4 ms and min D around 1 ms). It is not slower than Pro One, but somehow rounder..
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1234



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And and the OPAmps are substituted by TL071 and TL072 varieties... Smile
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involver



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Does anyone have a perf board or strip board layout for the Roland System 100m envelope that they can share? I'd love to try building one...
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frequencycentral



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just did a layout for single sided PCB which would very easily translate to perf. It has all the pots mounted on the PCB to minimise offboard wiring, and makes provision for a standard euro 10 pin header. I need to tidy up some notes and double check it against the schematic again, I'll post it over the next few days.
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decaying.sine



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looking forward to it frequencycentral!
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involver



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Brilliant! Thanks frequencycentral. Very Happy
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frequencycentral



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, here's my layout:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

It could really do with a second set of eyes before it's built and verified. I have perfed this circuit a number of times before (though using a different layout), so I know it to work with the semis I've specified. I've matched the tranny numbers to the Roland schemo, though not the other stuff.

If anyone wants a PCB or three (once it's verified), I'd be happy to etch some up at £10 per PCB.

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