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Apple's Planned Obsolescence
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:

Only an idiot believes Apple's promises.


Well I must be an idiot then? Very Happy

FWIW, 10.5 is really worth the update. Every penny.

Stacks are really useful (yes I too thought they were a bit cheesy, but once you get a load of Vista's "eye candy" Shocked Laughing )

Many bugs have dissapeared- not all, but a lot have gone, and of course there are more improvements.

Then there are things that I never use, like 'spaces'.

But no, 10.5 is worth the extra, in my really honest opinion. honestly! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anyone for a cheap Mac?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
Mac OSX updates in the same time period... well, I keep myself patched but I've been very lucky overall (knocking on my laminated particle board desk) -- I don't recall a single case in the last year where an update did not simply just work after a reboot.


I saw one this morning on the ChucK-list.

Apparently Ge got a auto-update that caused either CPU-spikes or issues with audio-callback (it's not quite clear yet exactly what's going on but a update to Airport sounds like the likely candidate as far as I understand).

Generally I agree that auto-updates if done well are a good thing for most people most of the time and Apple seems to be doing a proper job there, mostly.

I would also say that while that's true I do feel that in Apple's case auto-updates are used as a part of this strategy to keep users away from thinking about security and stability themselves which can be a part of a false sense of security.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

Then there are things that I never use, like 'spaces'

I don't use "spaces" either
btw
have you seen http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ Question

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing

yes I saw that earlier- but now I've figured it out Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I would also say that while that's true I do feel that in Apple's case auto-updates are used as a part of this strategy to keep users away from thinking about security and stability themselves which can be a part of a false sense of security.


An interesting conspiracy theory Very Happy

If this is what Apple do, then I hate to think what the message M$ are sending out to their customers Laughing Laughing Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Kassen wrote:
Your "flowerchild" note strikes me as quite insightful


Shocked Laughing who's being elitist now?! (you patronising old sod! Laughing)


No, wait. There are a few things going on at the same time. OSX has certain properties (good ones and bad ones) and Apple users have a certain image of OSX. Some Apple users have a unrealistic image that seems to have to do more with marketing then with the actual OS. Thi sis what James was referring to and there I agreed with him. I know full well that not all OSX users are the same but you know as well as I do that there are some Apple customers that hold that their Mac is immune to all bad things because it was specially made just for them by the all-benevolent Steve Jobs himself.

Quote:

Macintosh was never 'turned into a product' because it already was a product (from the word go). The Sony Walkman was a product, so was the iPod. The iPod of course, an mp3 player turned into a 'product', and of course turning an mp3 player into a product improved it (can you deny that?), the iPod has sold in its millions! An improvement right? The product works?


I agree they are all products, yes, and I agree you couldn't make millions (or even hundreds) without it becoming one. The issue was that James seemed to say Mac's are products whereas computers of other brands are less so and I disagree with that.

There is also the "branding" issue. The iPod also branded portable MP3 players and I do feel that move made it worse. For one thing that move created the situation where I couldn't use one if I wanted to (which I don't)

Quote:

Macdonalds don't necessarily have the 'best' food as far as I'm concerned, but to say that it isn't 'fresh' is a ridiculous argument. But what the blazes have macdonalds got to do with computers? Alright, it's a food 'product', but comparing a hamburger to a computer is...., well I'm just lost for words Laughing


This was still about the product/non-product issue, I picked McDonnalds because unlike your local high-cuisine restaurant it's not just a product but also heavily branded.

I'm not saying all products or brands are bad as there are very good ones, just that there is no inherent link between those factors and quality.

Quote:
Where this argument could go is that a hamburger is actually a very good source of protein and minerals. Many people prefer to buy fast food because they simply don't have the time to 'grow their own'. I prefer a Mac, because I plug it in, and it works. I can't be arsed to sit round working out why my homemade PC is just displaying a blue screen when I've got work to get on with


Sure, and that's why I have game consoles to play games on.

Building a home-made PC does require that you do some "working out" which can indeed backfire, no disagreement there, you can set the kitchen on fire baking hamburgers as well.

Still, for my tastes McDonnalds tastes like cardboard and Mac's seem to hate me.

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Well yes I agree, but love em or hate them, Macs DO look better than these examples right? I really like good design- damn I did a degree in this!! I love things that work well.


Better then some, worse then other, I'd say. IBM won awards for design and has a Thinkbook on permanent display in a design museum. I forgot his name but the designer got famous because of that black balanced lamp. I don't buy computers for their looks though. My own laptop is rather ugly but I like it, I also like my Liszitsky books. I'd like it if I could have both a working laptop and have it look good but I'm not paying twice as much for that. Apple's design is better then most computers (IMHO) but still not very good in most cases. I do like how those Macbook pro's look but not at that price with those features and definitely not with that OS.

Quote:
I guess I dislike PC's because they run Windows,


PC stands for *personal* computer, that means you have choice. Choice in hardware, choice in OS's. If you install Windows on yours that's your choice. Don't make me explain your choices to you.


Quote:
not that windows doesn't work, it just doesn't work well. Last night I had a go with Vista, for the first time-


Doctor, I bashed myself in the head and now my head hurts....


Quote:
even the command prompt now has built in help,


All terminals I have ever seen have a help function. This includes all versions of Dos and Linux, now that MacOS has a terminal it also has a terminal help function.


Quote:
but essentially it is just really horrible.


News at 11.


Quote:
All those times of walking into PC World, just to see these huge monitors displaying what I initially thought were moving advertisements, to my horror- no this is the real deal. This is what you get when you buy Vista- an eye candy hell farm!!!! (and they thought that Apple were "flower-power" Rolling Eyes Laughing "Flower-unpower" Laughing).


Hi, Tom, remember me? I'm Kassen. I'm that guy that thinks OSX has big issues but doesn't actually like Windows (though some versions like 98 or XP can be hammered into shape). Please snap out of your usual Mac v.s. Windows routine. I don't like Windows any more then you do, I just know enough about it to force it into working.


Quote:
But here I am, about to get forced into a job, where secretaries go "Oooh don't know about that apple stuff- they look nice, but I don't get them". What is there to get??


How it works, for starters. On OSX I have to open a terminal to move files and so on. At least that interface I get. I talked extensively about the issues with the OSX interface before, just look up those posts.


Quote:
And then on the other hand, I have to sit down with a computer loaded with Vista (and a nice pickie of Steve Ballmer staring down at me) and I'm supposed to get on with the flower-power, eye candy from hell PC. Sorry I'm ranting now, but you do get my drift right?


Sure, I hate Vista. I agree with Steve Jobs that it looks exactly like OSX. Can't you turn off/delete Areo and switch it to a "classic" interface?

Quote:

This is where I get really confused Kassen, I really don't understand what you mean. Perhaps yes, I can understand you trying to rip the guts out of OS X so it will run really fast on an ancient G3 processor,


No. I want to rip everything *but* the guts out and have it run really efficiently on a core2 Duo. I also want complete control. I want it basically like my XP laptop except a few years newer. I want to know what every process does, I want every file on the HD positively identified as mission-critical. I want to know for sure that if I delete one more OS file it will stop working.


Quote:
but an Intel Core Duo? As for setting up OS X, it's as simple as dropping an application from a dmg, opening it and pressing 'go'. There is no 'setting up' as you speak. The best move Apple made was chucking those f**king PPC chips in the trash! Intel rock!


I think you and me run very different applications. but yeah, most Windows stuff that I run is just a exe, double-click and it runs. I try to avoid installing stuff that touches the registry.


Quote:
But this is again all getting really silly, because my original argument was never that my product is better than your product (although to call Dell and HP 'products' is really funny because they remind me of those awful white 'go faster' training pumps so beloved of people who shop at Matalan (yes go on, I am a snob too! Wink :p :lol),


I never saw those and don't really care, I never had a computer by those brands anyway. Are those worse than that pretentious prick explaining to the fat office-guy how making photo albums is fun? For all I know it might be, I never made a photo album but I seriously doubt it's more fun then my freeware Japanese shooting games that will only run on Windows.


Quote:
but more to do with the fact that Windows is everywhere in the UK, and Windows has almost a monopoly on the British workforce- and I hate that. That's what my argument is really about!


Oh, that's your case? You use a Mac because "Windows is everywhere"? I hammered Windows into shape because out of the box it sucks then put Linux online because Windows nor OSX is suitable for that in my estimation. To each his own..



Quote:
I kind of get the feeling that this isn't really about OS X, but more of an identity thing,


Bingo.


Quote:
about your identity Kas


I'm flattered Steve went that far for me. Why doesn't he just send me a nice card? He could retire from his job easily, I'm sure.


Quote:
(in fact it's not just you mate- but virtually everyone I know who is nuts about Linux are really, well "radical", I don't really mean radical in a good way- although I respect them as being radical, if you know what I mean?). It's like you are just trying every stalling tactic just to say "I'm interested, but, no thanks (because it doesn't fit with my punk-linux image Wink )". Am I right or am I right?? Laughing


You are wrong. Your needs are very different from mine and OSX seems to meet your needs but it doesn't meet mine right now. How hard can this be to understand? You likely wouldn't fit my clothes, we make different music, we use a different shaving-cream.... and -shock horror!- we use different OS's. I'm not even "nuts" about Linux, it's just the best I can find for some purposes right now. I'm very much behind the philosophy of open source but I don't know enough about them to modify them myself, I completely fail to see how any of what I'm saying is "radical" at all. Let me list what I need from a OS;

*Drivers for everything.
*Stability. -
*Documentation. -
*A version of ChucK that runs in low latency (realtime kernel preferred -).
*Various other programs like a multi-track audio editor.
*A minimal interface I can understand and that doesn't get in the way. -.
* The ability to turn everything else off (and delete it where I don't anticipate ever turning it on again) -

Bonus;
* a programming language for graphics with live-coding features
* a C++ compiler to recompile ChucK if needed/ fun
* affordable -

I put a minus sign next to the issues where I think OSX needs work. None of this is radical, I feel.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:


An interesting conspiracy theory Very Happy


You know I'm right.

Quote:
If this is what Apple do, then I hate to think what the message M$ are sending out to their customers Laughing Laughing Laughing


A extremely bad one. But hopefully by now people know MS has a very bad policy there. I think the 2minutes to hack into a Mac on the second day of the contest was news for many though.

Was there a fix for that yet?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
You are wrong


Laughing

I knew you would say that- I just wanted to give you a big tickle! Embarassed Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

Was there a fix for that yet?


Not that I know of Confused

Perhaps it was all one big lie? Rolling Eyes Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I´m proud of myself. I´ve managed to hold back and not post a thing..


Hey... ?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

Perhaps it was all one big lie? Rolling Eyes Laughing


Probably. Satan planted those there to test the believe of humanity, like with those dinosaur bones.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I´m proud of myself. I´ve managed to hold back and not post a thing..



That's ok, there's no novelty in arguing with you, you're not nearly a random as Tom. (McDonald's is good for minerals?!!!!)

You'd say I'm right about some things but you need to configure those yourself..

You'd then argue that OSX in fact *does* run efficiently out of the box and none of those 15 or so Gigs ever get in the way (you might mention some languages and fonts can be deleted). I'd then say we have very different ideas about "efficiency" and that would be it.

There's really no need to be involved, we've got it covered.

:¬)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I reckon I would add something about leaving in the core installation ( but peeled down to a minimum - sans the incredible number of printer drivers, extra fonts and languages ) because Apple does a pretty good job patching the core installation with regular updates. - And there is a point to be made about running a basic and standard systems also makes it easier to find and kill bugs and all that.. A "standard" system also makes it easy to move the full installation between computers and drives.
And keeping lotsa shit in there.. who cares.. it is now more expensive to make a special order for a small drive than to buy a huge and fast one. This is a nix so a whole lot of the stuff on the drive are uncompressed text files. Who cares? As funny as it may sound, I´m fully capable of visiting a library or a museum without feeling the urge to burn all the stuff I know is there that I know I won´t ever need to read or see or touch. Amazing! Shocked

Efficiency is about workflow and bandwidth. Efficiency is not about making love to the computer. Shocked

Anyways, you know what I think about these matters so I won´t post it here.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Apparently Ge got a auto-update that caused either CPU-spikes or issues with audio-callback (it's not quite clear yet exactly what's going on but a update to Airport sounds like the likely candidate as far as I understand).


Oh, yes, I heard of that but I don't use airport much so I never saw it.

I guess I wasn't precise enough... I'm talking about *my* experience on my machine. As I said, I've been lucky and I hope to continue that way.

I'm well aware that some mac patches have screwed things up, and I'm fortunate that this has, by and large (and again knocking on the nearest artificially veneered particleboard surface), not happened to me.

James

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
How it works, for starters. On OSX I have to open a terminal to move files and so on.


Hm? Which files, where? The finder hides the traditional unixy directories like /usr, /etc, /bin, /dev and so on, and to move those around, you do have to go into the terminal. But user data should not be stored there. Everything else, you ... get this ... drag it out of one window in the finder into another one! Who would have guessed?

Sorry for the sarcasm but really... you're talking about a particular feature that works like every other window-based disk explorer in the world and you don't get it?

I'll say again, some of your criticisms of apple are spot on, but then you pop out with something like this and I just really cannot imagine where you're coming from.

James

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh yes! And if it is very important to see and mess with the "invisible" stuff using a GUI then it is just a matter of changing one parameter and restart the Finder.. and "ploff".. full access to the "protected" stuff. This takes a few seconds to accomplish. There is nothing to it. Kassen does not have to use the terminal all the time.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
Kassen wrote:
How it works, for starters. On OSX I have to open a terminal to move files and so on.


Hm? Which files, where? The finder hides the traditional unixy directories like /usr, /etc, /bin, /dev and so on, and to move those around, you do have to go into the terminal. But user data should not be stored there. Everything else, you ... get this ... drag it out of one window in the finder into another one! Who would have guessed?

Sorry for the sarcasm but really... you're talking about a particular feature that works like every other window-based disk explorer in the world and you don't get it?

I'll say again, some of your criticisms of apple are spot on, but then you pop out with something like this and I just really cannot imagine where you're coming from.



Laughing

Likewise, and James this is so spot on too!

I have exactly this same problem with my father, who incidentally was a Linux man- until he bought a Mac. The problem is that he still treats his new computer as if it were Linux. Then he moans and groans about why this or that isn't working, or why his files are now opening up under a different application. Apparently there is no such thing as a 'preference file' in Linux (?), so when I recently told him to trash the preferences, he was stumped. It's taken him almost 2 months to get round to finally doing what I had suggested- most of this was after complaining to the developer (Chroma) that this (brilliant) application wasn't working. In several letters to the developer, (and the developer had by this time stopped getting back to him- probably thought he was a troll Rolling Eyes Laughing ), he was explaing that he was copying over the application with terminal open and checking with console why this or that wasn't working.... sigh

My brother eventually bought a Mac because he too loved the "drag and drop" interface, but also liked OS X because he could get under the bonnet by opening a terminal. The best of both worlds imo (although I never bother with the terminal at all).

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Let me list what I need from a OS;

*Drivers for everything.
*Stability. -
*Documentation. -
*A version of ChucK that runs in low latency (realtime kernel preferred -).
*Various other programs like a multi-track audio editor.
*A minimal interface I can understand and that doesn't get in the way. -.
* The ability to turn everything else off (and delete it where I don't anticipate ever turning it on again) -

Bonus;
* a programming language for graphics with live-coding features
* a C++ compiler to recompile ChucK if needed/ fun
* affordable -

I put a minus sign next to the issues where I think OSX needs work. None of this is radical, I feel.


a minus sign? Well I admit Kas, I'm completely baffled- honestly. I don't know about Chuck, because I never use it, but absolutely everything else on the above list is completely and utterly possible on Mac OS X.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

a minus sign? Well I admit Kas, I'm completely baffled- honestly. I don't know about Chuck, because I never use it, but absolutely everything else on the above list is completely and utterly possible on Mac OS X.


I hate to agree with you but I do.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
v-un-v wrote:

a minus sign? Well I admit Kas, I'm completely baffled- honestly. I don't know about Chuck, because I never use it, but absolutely everything else on the above list is completely and utterly possible on Mac OS X.


I hate to agree with you but I do.


Well that's very interesting indeed, because I also remember arguing with you over pretty much the same things a couple of years back or so!

I think my opinions on the graphic drivers in OS X may have changed a little too, but then again it is hard to tell, because there is so little 3D MCAD available for Mac. But having said that, there are an awful lot of 3D modelling companies who are developing for OS X, and I'm not forgetting UGS/ Siemens who are the only industry standard company developing for OS X- so the drivers can't be that bad?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I suppose you get used to things in the end, OSX still has some annoyances for me but you learn to live with them in the end.

I do seem to spend a lot less time arseing around trying to get things to work then I do with other operating systems.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:

Hm? Which files, where? The finder hides the traditional unixy directories like /usr, /etc, /bin, /dev and so on, and to move those around, you do have to go into the terminal. But user data should not be stored there. Everything else, you ... get this ... drag it out of one window in the finder into another one! Who would have guessed?


:¬)

It's the same issue that's my main gripe with the Finder windows manager. At any one time one application will be the active one, right? Keyboard shortcuts will go there, etc. If I want to move a set of files I'll need the finder itself to be the active application so the keyboard shortcuts for cut, copy and paste and so on will go there.

What tends to happen is that I highlight a set of files (I think), try to make sure the finder is the active one (but I don't know where to look) then hit [cttrl] (well, "apple") + [x] or [c] and something else will happen... some program will try to open the files (which is annoying if they are large) or something else will go wrong. I then have to figure out what went wrong, try to make the program go away and try again. Not so bad if it's just one small text but if we are talking about -say- a season of a series in some movie format this becomes a lengthy process because the things that go wrong take so much time.


Quote:
Sorry for the sarcasm but really... you're talking about a particular feature that works like every other window-based disk explorer in the world and you don't get it?


Well, how do you think I feel about it? It's very strange to me but it just keeps happening. I also keep double clicking (according to the computer) when I really intended to single-click. With TOS/GEM (which comes from the same XEROX/parc inspiration, OS/2 and Windows I never had any issues with this but OSX has a personal hatred for me.

/usr/bin and so on are entirely fine with me, BTW. I'm logged in to Ubuntu right now without privileges to touch those. I think I could theoretically get into a graphical session with access to those but I don't need to. One line of "sddo" every few months, double checking it three times for correctness is fine with me.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I also keep double clicking (according to the computer) when I really intended to single-click.


After two and a half years, my Apple mouse started double-clicking most of it's clicks. I had to replace the mouse to fix it.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

a minus sign? Well I admit Kas, I'm completely baffled- honestly. I don't know about Chuck, because I never use it, but absolutely everything else on the above list is completely and utterly possible on Mac OS X.


ChucK runs just fine on a Mac, as far as I know, Ge himself uses one.

As for the rest; where and how can I get this OSX realtime kernel? I never heard of one, do you have a link? How can I replace the finder with -say- Nautilus? Where is this documentation? (Apple's developer docs don't cut it).

Just for kicks, about all of those processes, could you go into your terminal, run the command "top", copy the results and post those? We'll go over all of them and you explain to me how to delete all of the ones that can't be positively identified as essential.

I'm a bit tired of all these "you can do that" comments when no info about HOW can be found online anywhere, it's no more meaningful to me then Christian people suggesting I accept the earth is 6000 years old on faith. I need solid info I could work with right now. You can claim it's stable all you want but I've never actually seen one run stably for over two hours or so. They drop like flies, I've literally seen Apple's needing a reboot because a dirty dvd had been inserted and somehow that could bring the entire OS to it's knees. That's not acceptable behaviour.

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