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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003
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 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:34 pm Post subject:
Consumption versus artyfarty concept music |
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One issue that pops up when we look at the new "iTunes Music Store" - style webshops is that albums and CDs are broken down into songs.
Posted by Marco on the Music network lists:
"Business Week examines the move by various popular music bands, such as Metallica and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, to not make their music available for sale on Apple's online music service. The article notes that their decision was based on a concern that consumers will buy individual songs, thus "breaking up the artistic fabric of their albums." The article discusses, in this context, how online music services in general may be shifting the control over music buying from artist to consumer.
I do believe that some artists' concern are justified. Some albums, like Pink Floyd's "The Wall" or "Atom Heart Mother", should be really considered as artworks in their whole, differently from single songs which can be extract from them (event though these songs are masterpeices themeselves).
But is artists' concern sincere ? I mean, is it an artistic concern or... something else (dear customer, please, buy whole the album and not just one or two hits) ? The latter possibility is addressed to drive the iTunes (and iTunes-like) delivery model. Interesting indeed."
And yes.. I find this interesting too. Any thoughts on the matter? You guys? Anyone?
Marco mentions artistic fabric. OK.. I can buy that one.. but fact is that classsical music ( whatever that is ) has been largely sold and consumed on a per song greatest hits basis for like 50 years or more. Classical concerts are often even more so. Anyone remember the good old sheet music biz way back? Was that one not dominated by a "per song" hit basis or not?
A lot of early music in the electronic/electroacoustic genre were actually MADE one a per song basis.. not a per album basis. Thinking of music in a packaged context like CDs or LPs is a pretty new idea anyway and mostly related to popular music ( whatever that is ).
On the other hand .. short musical pieces is not always the chosen format for composers. Studio recorded music / studio written music- might not always be the chosen format either. Many composers will still write for perfomances and often even LONG performances.
One might ask if the new generation music web stores are educating / transforming consumers into going for shorter and singular "songs" instead of .. just.. ...music(?).
I am not sure what I think of this myself. I tend to think that the "singular hit song" approach in the music biz is so old that the new webshops do not really add up to much except from actually offering a wide selection of downloadable music. Personally I do not think that the Apple music shop or others will change things drastically. |
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jsampson
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:12 am Post subject:
Consumption versus artyfarty concept music |
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| Quote: | | One might ask if the new generation music web stores are educating / transforming consumers into going for shorter and singular "songs" instead of .. just.. ...music(?). |
Since radio first started influencing listeners, the majority of consumers have been song-oriented. (On second thought, it probably started before radio. Anyway...) A lot of music buyers bought singles -- not albums. A lot of album buyers bought them for one song -- usually hoping the other songs would be to their satisfaction and oftentimes being disappointed with most of them -- the exceptions, more often than not, being the albums made up of singles. The persona of album buyer didn't really come along until the very late 60s and early 70s. When artists started releasing collections of songs designed to be played together as a whole (the concept / theme album) -- when songs started growing in length (12 minute guitar solos) -- radio (initially in the form of college FM stations) made the transition to more open formatting and the listeners responded in a (consumerly) positive way. As tastes in music changed (the why and how aren't fit for this discussion  ) and playlists tightened up again, "new" consumers were less likely to become "album buyers". I see it in my 14-year-old's tastes and buying habits. Although she has a slowly growing collection of CDs, as her ability to get just the songs she likes off the web grows, her accumulation technique is focused more in that direction.
All that, however, is talking about "pop" music (and is strongly influenced by the fact that I live in North America). Pop music has always been song oriented and is likely to always be. Electronic music has never been popular with the general audience -- the exception being, obviously, electronic "pop". Even the most popular of electronic artists aren't popular with the general listening public, and likely aren't even known.
If someone wants a song or few from a particular artist, and they're given the opportunity to get just that song or few, that's all they'll buy. Those of us who enjoy long-form pieces of music aren't the type of consumer places like iTunes are going after. So I, for one, am neither encouraged nor bothered by the new breed of online music store. Because I don't sell a great deal of my music to anyone -- unfortunately -- I don't fit in their marketing model and they aren't interested in cataloging my "songs".
So, that's a mighty long-winded way of saying that I agree with
| Quote: | | I tend to think that the "singular hit song" approach in the music biz is so old that the new webshops do not really add up to much except from actually offering a wide selection of downloadable music. Personally I do not think that the Apple music shop or others will change things drastically. |
Which brings a question to mind: Do any of you have experience with places like Ampcast or Vitaminic, where music can be posted for a pay-first download? I'm guessing the only ones who make any money that way are the ones producing "popular" music, but it's just a guess. |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:45 am Post subject:
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Interesting reply. Well .. I started this thread because I discovered that there was a growing controversy regarding the evil commercial trends that music webshops (like the one Apple is running).
Anyway, discussing the context of music and the possible importance of not dissecting the work of an artist into fragments is interesting.
... Ampcast... no.. I have no experience with that stuff. I have 3 songs hanging at MP3.com, that is all. I guess Norm Vogel have some experience with Ampcast. Norm? You there?
Personally I am more interested in selling CDs/vinyl which forces the listener to listen to a series of pieces. I do not think that any of my material is suitable for the "one song" sale kinda business. But.. having just 3 songs at mp3.com has actually generated a real lot nice emails from listeners. I did not expect that at all, so it seems that a lot of music fans do spend serious time checking out the files.
Places like Ampcast and MP3.com does have some nice communities too. At ampcast you might want to find Darrel Burgan and his Blue Water Dive weekly streaming radio show. Darrel is a very nice bloke. |
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mosc
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:57 am Post subject:
Re: Consumption versus artyfarty concept music |
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| jsampson wrote: | | Which brings a question to mind: Do any of you have experience with places like Ampcast or Vitaminic, where music can be posted for a pay-first download? I'm guessing the only ones who make any money that way are the ones producing "popular" music, but it's just a guess. |
I used to have about 12 pieces on mp3.com but they cut me down to 3 unless I paid. I don't like going to these kinds of sites for three reasons:
1) mp3s, even at relatively high bit rates, don't sound good. They are only an approximation of the music.
2) I'm constantly asked for my email address, which means I'm going to get spam. And there are almost always annoying pop ups.
3) The music is not organized in a way the enables me to find the styles I'm interested in.
That said, I feel the need to make electro-music.com a place that can feature the kind of non-pop electronic music we are making and listening to. I'm struggling with what would look like. |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:49 am Post subject:
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| Yup... Howard! I agree .. I have the same list.. |
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yaniki
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:41 pm Post subject:
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| yup.. I will sign that one too.. I fully agree. MP3 is only an approximation. various MP3 players and encoders also behave differently. Some even end up with a playback that clearly has time stability issues .. the events sound out of sync or out of time.. and listening to the 24 bit masters clearly shows that something really is acting up in the mp3 playback. |
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jsampson
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:58 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
Personally I am more interested in selling CDs/vinyl which forces the listener to listen to a series of pieces. I do not think that any of my material is suitable for the "one song" sale kinda business. |
That's an interesting approach, and I'm not gonna sit here and tell you you're wrong to feel that way. I'd certainly prefer people bought an album's worth of material than "just" one piece of music. I'm wondering, purely as a curiosity, how you feel about airplay.
| Quote: | | But.. having just 3 songs at mp3.com has actually generated a real lot nice emails from listeners. I did not expect that at all, so it seems that a lot of music fans do spend serious time checking out the files. |
Did any of them give you the impression they'd buy those songs if they were available as single-sale items. I'm really not trying to play devil's advocate here -- I'm genuinely curious. I'm still trying to figure out how to use the internet as a sales tool -- almost any piece of information is useful.
| Quote: | | Places like Ampcast and MP3.com does have some nice communities too. At ampcast you might want to find Darrel Burgan and his Blue Water Dive weekly streaming radio show. Darrel is a very nice bloke. |
Yeah, he does seem to be. I recently began a page there ( www.ampcast.com/jsampson ) and he latched onto the first tune I posted, played it that week on his show and said some very nice things about it. I haven't pestered him with any questions about the site, although I probably should as he seems to be having quite some success with it. It's sorta like why it took me a week to reply to your note -- I seem to work best when I can focus on one thing at a time and I find myself with 54 things that need simultaneous attention.
Jeff |
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jsampson
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Consumption versus artyfarty concept music |
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| mosc wrote: |
I used to have about 12 pieces on mp3.com but they cut me down to 3 unless I paid. I don't like going to these kinds of sites for three reasons:
1) mp3s, even at relatively high bit rates, don't sound good. They are only an approximation of the music. |
Maybe I'm just picking at semantics here, but I think high bit rate mp3s sound good -- not as good as CD-quality audio, but good enough to appreciate the music. I can certainly make an informed decision about an artist, an album, or a genre from mp3s. Would I buy an mp3 album? Not likely. Do I burn CD-Rs of downloaded mp3s taken from sites that make available music I like and can get no other way? Yes. While I'd prefer to have an "audiophile" version of those musics, I'd rather be able to hear them from mp3s than not at all.
Yet, as a consumer, I abhor MP3.com -- mostly because:
| Quote: | 2) I'm constantly asked for my email address, which means I'm going to get spam. And there are almost always annoying pop ups.
3) The music is not organized in a way the enables me to find the styles I'm interested in. |
Sites like Vitaminic and Epitonic that allow all sorts of up-tempo/dance/etc. music to be catagorized as "ambient" drive me crazy. (As an example of places that are difficult for me to find music I like in.) Mp3.com never struck me as very organized either.
| Quote: | | That said, I feel the need to make electro-music.com a place that can feature the kind of non-pop electronic music we are making and listening to. I'm struggling with what would look like. |
Looking forward to the day you get it sorted out. I like this place. Despite appearances (mine), I've already spent more quality time here than anywhere else that's tried to grab my intereactive attention.
Jeff |
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seraph
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:39 am Post subject:
Re: music to help you escape |
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| jsampson wrote: | | I think high bit rate mp3s sound good -- not as good as CD-quality audio, but good enough to appreciate the music. I can certainly make an informed decision about an artist, an album, or a genre from mp3s. Would I buy an mp3 album? Not likely. Do I burn CD-Rs of downloaded mp3s taken from sites that make available music I like and can get no other way? Yes. While I'd prefer to have an "audiophile" version of those musics, I'd rather be able to hear them from mp3s than not at all. |
I could not agree more with Jeff. We do not live in a perfect world so it's better an approximation than nothing
| jsampson wrote: | | I like this place. Despite appearances (mine), I've already spent more quality time here than anywhere else that's tried to grab my intereactive attention.Jeff |
One more time I could say the same!
Howard this is a success 
I even visited Jeff's web site and I noticed the sentence that is the title of this message. That's enough for a brand new thread:
should music help to escape?
escape from what?
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| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:47 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | | I'm wondering, purely as a curiosity, how you feel about airplay. |
Airplay is cool, but then this depends on the format of the show. I am not thinking the average commercial top 40 show here. BIll Fox has this show which seems kinda what I like when it comes to radio shows
My music is of a format where each piece is way too long to be suitable for ordinary airplay.. special shows like that one Bill has, is more like it..
| Quote: | | Did any of them give you the impression they'd buy those songs if they were available as single-sale items. I'm really not trying to play devil's advocate here -- I'm genuinely curious. I'm still trying to figure out how to use the internet as a sales tool -- almost any piece of information is useful. |
Most of the comments I get are about having me tell them where they can buy a CD.. and about musical issues. Many compare my stuff to early Vangelis, which is not a good comparison at all, but I do understand why. Another interesting fact is that it seems like many of the listeners finding my stuff and listening to it in fact does not know much about various modern strains of "electronic music". Some comments about the music indicates that they are more into classical music than mainstream, which serves me just fine. -But I have no idea why and how these people find my music page at MP3.com. At least there is a lot of wonderful people out there who listens to music.
Single song buy/ versus whole album: Seems like many wants to hear more.. which indicates that people are used to the album/CD format. |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:15 am Post subject:
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About the MP3 format:
Yes.. it is quite useful as a format.. but it is far from what I think the main delivery format of music should be like. OK.. I have gotten rid of crosstalk and noise and shit.. like what I had to accept to live with back then when I used reel to reel tape multitrackers. But now I want a delivery format on CD or whatever which can retain the qualites of at least 24/44.1.. and hopefully better.
To my ears... selling music in MP3 format does not make much sense.. at least not as a substitution for the buying the CD |
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seraph
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:40 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | I want a delivery format on CD or whatever which can retain the qualites of at least 24/44.1.. and hopefully better.
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what about downloading time? The average "customer" would not wait that long to download a song in that format.
maybe in the next future.......
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| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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egw
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:51 am Post subject:
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Hey I agree with all the comments here!
MP3s are ok for certain applications, like posting your music on the web.
In fact they are as good or better than cassettes, which used to be the preferred format for compilations and listening in the car.
I wouldn't buy single songs or MP3 CDs.
In fact I rarely buy CDs any more.
Most independent artists are willing to trade for original music.
I've gotten more music this way than I have time to listen to!
And the quality is surprisingly good.
I won't support the mainstream commercial music industry (vultures) if I can avoid it. |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:30 am Post subject:
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egw! Yes! I do think that MP3 is OK for certain applications. Sure it is.
When it comes to download time.. sure it would be great to have a good compression scheme for online delivery. But in my opinion this really should include other factos and not only a slim format.
The whole mess about mp3, piracy and rights management is basically about the middle section of the music business getting its cut, and not much thought has been given us, the actual producers of content, and the end market.. the listeners/ consumers. The way the music biz has been handling rights management issues the last 40 years seems to contain at least these factors:
1.Diversity is not good if it is not controlled by the middle men ( the music biz )
2.Composers/musicians are demons which should be controlled and possibly excorcised
3.The end users must now show any form of disagreement with the products delivered to market.
4.Controlling file formats, digital rights management and distribution serves to close the internet as a distribution network of music made by non-signed artists.
I find it extremely interesting that the major labels can communicate the silly idea that their products should sell in specific numbers as a constant. OK.. in most other businesses it is recongnized that a red chair or a certain kitchen appliance has a certain saturation point in the market. There might be people out there looking for something as silly as a green chair.. let alone a brown one.
This brings us back to the "single song" marketing problem. I referenced a specific post on one of the music network lists. And I disagreed with the poster. But I do see his point. The big "if" here, is probably wether the music biz goes completely into a state of catatonic trance and decides to rip everything in their back catalogue out of its proper context, or not. |
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egw
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:47 am Post subject:
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| Quote: |
1.Diversity is not good if it is not controlled by the middle men ( the music biz )
2.Composers/musicians are demons which should be controlled and possibly excorcised |
I would rephrase :
1. Diversity is not good BECAUSE it is not controlled by the middle men.
2. Composers/musicians with their own creative ideas are demons which should be controlled (or ignored)
I'm not too worried about the single song format becoming dominant. We used to buy singles when we were kids, but as our tastes matured we moved on to other things. Singles may be great for people who never move beyond the pop song format. But if that's all you want you can listen to the radio. I think this is mostly for kids.
In the music business, as in most businesses, the emphasis is not only on profitability but predictability. Predictability makes things much easier to manage. But predictability is anathema to art (or any independent thought). That's why my preference is to view music as a non-commercial endeavor. |
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mosc
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:59 am Post subject:
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Wow, I'm overwhelmed. I have just returned from a trip to visit the music people at RPI in Troy, New York. I return after being off line for a few days. What a wonderful thing to find this site humming away with interesting discussions. There was even an order for a CD in the inbox. Thank you all so much. I feel like this dream is coming true
So let me respond...
| JSAMPSON wrote: | | I like this place. Despite appearances (mine), I've already spent more quality time here than anywhere else that's tried to grab my interactive attention. |
| SERAPH wrote: | One more time I could say the same!
Howard this is a success |
Thanks guys.
| JSAMPSON wrote: | | Maybe I'm just picking at semantics here, but I think high bit rate mp3s sound good -- not as good as CD-quality audio, but good enough to appreciate the music. I can certainly make an informed decision about an artist, an album, or a genre from mp3s. Would I buy an mp3 album? Not likely. Do I burn CD-Rs of downloaded mp3s taken from sites that make available music I like and can get no other way? Yes. While I'd prefer to have an "audiophile" version of those musics, I'd rather be able to hear them from mp3s than not at all. |
Yes, mp3 has a place. It's still an approximation of the music, but that is useful to be sure. I find that for my music, the music I know the best, the worst damage is done to fine aural details in spacialization. Since I focus a lot of attention to that, I feel mp3 is very bad. I think that most of us are really into beautiful sound; that's one of the things that attracts us to electronic music - beautiful full specturm spacialized sounds.
For online examples, mp3 is of great value. Jeff is right that without it independent artist might not be heard at all. That's why I'm reenergized to get streaming and downloading from this site. Not having audio is a glairing deficiency. But the emphasis should be on the CDs. I think this format is the most appropriate for our music.
One more thing about downloads. They take too long for me. I have a pretty good cable modem, and I don't like waiting for high bit rate mp3s to download. Some members here have literally hours of music on their web pages. I've listened to a few files and enjoy the music. I haven't taken the time to download and listen to everything. I'd rather have a CD. CD sales are good for the artists, good for the audience, and good for the music (not to mention electro-music.com). So I'm looking at mp3 as a means to an end.
This is getting to long but... I'm thinking of contacting Apple about getting a relationship going between iTunes and electro-music.com. Apple doesn't want to deal directly with artists, but rather with labels and online places like CDBaby. Does anyone think this electro-music.com - iTunes relationship would be of value? |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:00 am Post subject:
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iTunes Music Shop and electro-music.com - great..
As long as you offer the CDs here. But this means that electro-music.com turns becomes a label. I love this idea. |
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seraph
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:25 pm Post subject:
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That's what I read recently, it could be interesting if...........
http://www.macosrumors.com/
Monday, August 18 8:56 AM
International versions of the iTunes Music Store: Many non-U.S. readers have written in asking for updates on this front. The good news is that versions of the Music Store for Europe and the non-U.S. Americas are apparently making good progress towards opening at last. Apple is having particular success with its efforts to secure rights to distribute music in Central/South America, and could have that store on-line within two months. The European store isn't far behind and because it is the highest priority currently, we are told that it could open even sooner -- perhaps as soon as the end of September, although no promises are being made for anything short of "by the end of the year."
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| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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jsampson
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:53 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | I'm thinking of contacting Apple about getting a relationship going between iTunes and electro-music.com. Apple doesn't want to deal directly with artists, but rather with labels and online places like CDBaby. Does anyone think this electro-music.com - iTunes relationship would be of value? |
I like that idea. I have one project online with CDBaby, so I could do the iTunes thing through them (and, I guess, everwhere else Derek is claiming they'll work with). But despite Derek Siver's apparent straight-shooter approach to independent music, there's just something about the arrangement that doesn't feel right. I'd feel more comfortable, I think, going through here.
I don't think you'd have to turn electro-music into a label -- CDBaby isn't.
Last edited by jsampson on Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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seraph
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:16 am Post subject:
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I checked CDBaby.com, CDBaby.net, CDBaby.org
I guess they are the same guys!
I read about their Digital Distribution and selling CDs. It looks neat!
Howard, are you proposing to do something like that but specialized on electronic music?
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| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:54 am Post subject:
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I have started a new thread at How to start a label
How the business works, really, without getting into a mess with rights management and whatnot is to to start a label. It is hard to address all the issues unless you run a label. |
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mosc
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:42 am Post subject:
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| seraph wrote: | I read about their Digital Distribution and selling CDs. It looks neat!
Howard, are you proposing to do something like that but specialized on electronic music? |
Well, I think it might be worth looking into. CDBaby etc isn't really a good focus for people looking into electronic music, but they are a good model to follow for an online music store. The electro-music.com CD store agreement is pretty much based on their's except in the past few months, they have significantly reduced the share of the CD sales that their artists - about a factor of 2! |
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