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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Haible Vokoder?
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: Vocoders
Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on...
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robovoice wrote:
jhaible wrote:
robovoice wrote:

So that was the Barth Kraftwerk Vocoder on eBay a year or so ago, not the Sennheiser Kraftwerk Vocoder? I wonder if that was legit or a scam.


I don't know - didn't know that only Kraftwerk had a Barth vocoder, either.
Actually, not exactly being the biggest Kraftwerk fan, I didn't know of any Barth vocoder until someone pointed me at that auction.

JH.

Now on the record player - guess what? - Oldfield, Five Miles Out. Smile

Does he use both an EMS and the Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI, or just the VP-330+ MkI?


I haven't had time to wath the DVD again yet - I just listen to records while I'm soldering the Scanner Vibrato. Laughing

JH.

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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just started to watch the DVD again.
So far I have not spotted any EMS vocoder, so my memory may simply have been wrong.
And, Tim Cross has something beneath his Prophet 5 with sloped wooden cheeks that could be a VP330 indeed.

But then again, during these prominent vocoder parts in the QE2 medley, the main vocoder lines are clearly sung by Oldfield, and he's playing on a Polymoog as far as I can tell. The vocoder he uses is out of sight.
Could he have run his Polymoog thru the Vocoder section of a Roland Vocoder Plus ? Or is it a EMS 2000 which is mounted somewhere in the rack?

I don't know.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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robovoice



Joined: May 23, 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Mike Oldfield's Vocoder(s)
Subject description: Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI (and an EMS Vocoder 2000?)
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jhaible wrote:
I just started to watch the DVD again.
So far I have not spotted any EMS vocoder, so my memory may simply have been wrong.
And, Tim Cross has something beneath his Prophet 5 with sloped wooden cheeks that could be a VP330 indeed.

But then again, during these prominent vocoder parts in the QE2 medley, the main vocoder lines are clearly sung by Oldfield, and he's playing on a Polymoog as far as I can tell. The vocoder he uses is out of sight.
Could he have run his Polymoog thru the Vocoder section of a Roland Vocoder Plus ? Or is it a EMS 2000 which is mounted somewhere in the rack?

I don't know.

JH.

Yes, he could. You can plug any other synth into the VP-330 and use it instead of the supplied keyboard. Since I don't own a copy of this album I can't check it to see if they list the equipment used (although there may be a site, such as from Oldfield himself that does). However if you tell me which songs have vocoder parts in them I could listen to them on Rhapsody, check for vids on YouTube, or some other site and give a listen. Since the EMS Vocoder is the one used for the Cylons it should have somewhat of that sound to it if it is indeed an EMS. If it doesn't than it isn't. Than it's just the VP-330 since it's already known to be used by Mike Oldfield on that LP. Others who have this have told me this and I have no reason to think they'd be wrong especially since one of them told me he has a picture taken from the album or a concert related to it clearly showing a Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI. Plus the vids on YouTube sound like it. So therefore are there other songs I haven't heard that might use an EMS?? I'll give another listen to songs such as "Five Miles Out" and others from Oldfield on the Tube. Cool!!

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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What you write is very convincing.
Well it's been a long time since I had an EMS vocoder in my hands, so it may be that in all the years that I've falsely asumed theat the vocoder parts of Oldfield are EMS, I have started to think about that sound as the EMS vocoder sound. It's entirely possible, and if my "reference" is wrong, my conclusions are also.

Can you point me to any sound samples that are EMS2000 or EMS3000 beyond any doubt?
It would be quite important if I ever do a Vocoder PCB - because I have the EMS filter and end ENV followers and slew circuit in my head, but I may draw the wrong conclusions about their benefits and downsides if I have the wrong sound in my head.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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sneakthief



Joined: Jul 24, 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

is this demonstration of the ems2000 useful?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sli2JRQ0i8w

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sneakthief wrote:
is this demonstration of the ems2000 useful?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sli2JRQ0i8w


That's a good start Smile

Thank you!

Something demonstaring the slew function would be helpful, too.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Luka



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ooh i want one
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robovoice



Joined: May 23, 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:32 am    Post subject: EMS Vocoder
Subject description: Recordings featuring an EMS Vocoder
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jhaible wrote:
What you write is very convincing.
Well it's been a long time since I had an EMS vocoder in my hands, so it may be that in all the years that I've falsely asumed theat the vocoder parts of Oldfield are EMS, I have started to think about that sound as the EMS vocoder sound. It's entirely possible, and if my "reference" is wrong, my conclusions are also.

Can you point me to any sound samples that are EMS2000 or EMS3000 beyond any doubt?
It would be quite important if I ever do a Vocoder PCB - because I have the EMS filter and end ENV followers and slew circuit in my head, but I may draw the wrong conclusions about their benefits and downsides if I have the wrong sound in my head.

JH.
jhaible wrote:
What you write is very convincing.
Well it's been a long time since I had an EMS vocoder in my hands, so it may be that in all the years that I've falsely asumed theat the vocoder parts of Oldfield are EMS, I have started to think about that sound as the EMS vocoder sound. It's entirely possible, and if my "reference" is wrong, my conclusions are also.

Can you point me to any sound samples that are EMS2000 or EMS3000 beyond any doubt?
It would be quite important if I ever do a Vocoder PCB - because I have the EMS filter and end ENV followers and slew circuit in my head, but I may draw the wrong conclusions about their benefits and downsides if I have the wrong sound in my head.

JH.
EMS Vocoders:
Newcleus "Computer Age"
ELO "Diary of Horace Wimp"
ELO "Big Wheels"
ELO "Steppin' Out"
ELO "Believe Me Now"
ELO "Confusion"
ELO "Mr. Blue Sky"
ELO "Midnight Blue"
Giorgio Moroder "I'm Left, Your Right, She's Gone" Giorgio usually uses the Moog MBVO 16-Channel Vooder, but this sounds like an EMS to me.
James Bond Plays A Video Game
Man Parrish "Heatstroke" Fyi, ELO sold their EMS Vocoder 2000W MkI to Mr. Manual Josesf Parrish. So this is the actual same vocoder as used in the previous ELO songs. And,
Jean-Michel Jarre "Zoolook"
ELO and Man Parrish = EMS Vocoder 2000W MkI (in fact the same vocoder).
Newcleus and Giorgio Moroder = not sure which version it is.
Never Say Never Again = I'm thinking it's the 3000, but not 100% sure.
Jean-Michel Jarre = EMS Vocoder 1000 (don't know if it's MkI or MkII).

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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you!

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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robovoice



Joined: May 23, 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Thank you!

JH.
You're welcome.
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robovoice



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject:  EMS Vocoder!!!
Subject description: These are recordings from an EMS Vocoder-System 2000B MkII!!!
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These are recordings from an email (correspondence) friend of mine of his EMS Vocoder-System 2000B MkII!!!


Cylon 1.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Cylon 1.mp3
 Filesize:  346.03 KB
 Downloaded:  194 Time(s)


Cylon EMS.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Cylon EMS.mp3
 Filesize:  2.84 MB
 Downloaded:  200 Time(s)


Cylon Voice EMS & RM.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Cylon Voice EMS & RM.mp3
 Filesize:  1.4 MB
 Downloaded:  203 Time(s)


Cylon_Silver_sample.mp3
 Description:

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 Filename:  Cylon_Silver_sample.mp3
 Filesize:  222.29 KB
 Downloaded:  187 Time(s)


CYLON.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  CYLON.mp3
 Filesize:  188.23 KB
 Downloaded:  175 Time(s)


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Electronicant



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject: Vocoder Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jürgen,

Do you plan the vocoder as one unit or in two modules; a synthesis and an ananalyzer? Doepfer and Club of the knobs have vocoders, but they are flexible because the fixed filter banks can be used for other filtering in the system, not just for vocoder.

Regards
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Vocoder Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electronicant wrote:
Hi Jürgen,

Do you plan the vocoder as one unit or in two modules; a synthesis and an ananalyzer? Doepfer and Club of the knobs have vocoders, but they are flexible because the fixed filter banks can be used for other filtering in the system, not just for vocoder.

Regards


You will be able to use the vocoder as a filterbank.
And - if all goes as intended - you will be able to crossfade between filterbank mode and vocoder mode (That's one of most interesing parts of the Sennheiser, IMO, BTW.)
That all will happen with the *synthesis* filters.

Can you bring out the analysis filters as well? Of course you can - remember, you're building the whole thing yourself, so you can solder wires with jacks at whatever point you want. I just provide the PCBs.

BTW, as far as I can tell from what I've seen inside an EMS 3000 vocoder, it looks like someone (probably Ludwig Rehberg, as he is the only one who offers the 3000 AFAIK) has used a PCB that was intended for a vocoder without channel potentiometers (EMS 2000 probaly), and soldered wires with pots at the right places.

I plan to provide connection points for vocoder channel potentiometers *plus* a set of filter bank potentiometers, so you can build the deluxe, Sennheiser-inspired version with two rows of potentiometers if you like.
Or you can build just a standard vocoder. You can even build a version without channel potentiometers. All depending on how much money you want to spend, and what you really need.
I may even provide an interface for digital formant data storage, so you don't just have the usual freeze function, but can store your favorite formants permanently, while still having a completely analogue vocoder.

But all this is just preliminary.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Electronicant



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, a filter bank with separate outs/channel would be desired.

16-20 channels would be fine.

Do you estimate the boars to be finished during 2008 or 2009 or when?

Regards
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CJ Miller



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all! Just to chime in, I'd definately buy a set if they are made!

CJ
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

CJ Miller wrote:
Hi all! Just to chime in, I'd definately buy a set if they are made!

CJ


But we're not talking about 160mm x100m, 27 Euro, boards here.
There will be one *huge board* that fills most of a 19" rackmount enclosure, plus maybe 2 or three smaller boards.
I expect the PCB costs in the range of 150 Euros for the complete vocoder.
(But if you build it yourself, you'll have something better than an EMS3000.)
Component costs will depend on the precision you need. With about 70 trimpots you can achieve a precision the commercial vocoders could only dream of (with the possible exception of the Sennheiser, where each individual unit had 18 selected resistors in filter band Wink )
But for diy, a little patience and a PC-based freeware signal generator and frequency counter will bring you a long way with just trimpots ....
Or, if precision isn't what you need, you can get away without a lot of trimpots, just using fixed resistors, maybe. The diy concept leaves you a choice!

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Luka



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

im in too

perhaps we can work out a group buy for components
so we can get quality and lat a reasonable price

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:


But we're not talking about 160mm x100m, 27 Euro, boards here.
There will be one *huge board* that fills most of a 19" rackmount enclosure, plus maybe 2 or three smaller boards.
I expect the PCB costs in the range of 150 Euros for the complete vocoder.

JH.


I would be interested in this IMMEDIATELY! Shocked Shocked The only real vocoder that I used before the Boss SE-50, SE-70 and Reason's - was the Roland Vocoder. I have wanted a real one for YEARS.

I can wait. (Of course. Wink LOL ) If you DO decided to go through with one sir, I'm DEFINATELY in for one! Smile

(I also have almost 1000 trimmers and may be already covered there. Wink )
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Luka wrote:
im in too

perhaps we can work out a group buy for components
so we can get quality and lat a reasonable price



That might be a good plan for the expensive parts.
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ringer



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Juergen,

I know this maybe too much to ask for, but here goes.

I have always had the desire to own an EMS 5000. Would it be possible to keep the project open ended so that one may include a frequency shifter, pitch extractor, patchbay, vco's, keyboard inputs ( 1volt/oct and variable) and mixer to combine with the Sennheiser attributes to make the JH Uber Vokoder. Many thanks for you considerations in advance.

Regards,
Ringer
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ringer wrote:
Hi Juergen,

I know this maybe too much to ask for, but here goes.

I have always had the desire to own an EMS 5000. Would it be possible to keep the project open ended so that one may include a frequency shifter, pitch extractor, patchbay, vco's, keyboard inputs ( 1volt/oct and variable) and mixer to combine with the Sennheiser attributes to make the JH Uber Vokoder. Many thanks for you considerations in advance.

Regards,
Ringer


With DIY, everything is open ended; only you decide what enclosure you choose and what you will wire together internally.
OTOH, 19" rackmount enclosures are a very nice "modular" format for projects like this (or these): Even when you put the FS-1a into a separate enclosure from the Vocoder, you can arrange them (and other circuits) in a rack together.
Another possibility is to just have dedicated 19" frontpanels with a perpendicular mounting plane attached to them and the PCBs mounted on these - like a 19" open frame module - and then put them together in one (wooden?) enclosure. That way, you can start building early, without the need to know in advance how big the whole project will become.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jnuaury



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

heres an idea...

would it be be a good idea to split the bands across two separate boards in such a way that if the "complete" vocoder PCB set had 16 bands one could opt to just use/buy a board that does 8 bands?


i ask this because i like using vocoders for analysis so ill want to have everything patched out and with most or all of the extra features involved but i have front panel space constraints so 8 bands (or 7 if you do a 14) should be adequate for me and probably some who are on a budget
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jnuaury wrote:
heres an idea...

would it be be a good idea to split the bands across two separate boards in such a way that if the "complete" vocoder PCB set had 16 bands one could opt to just use/buy a board that does 8 bands?


Doesn't make much sense IMO, as with more bands, you also need steeper filters.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jnuaury



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ah! i did not consider the filters' steepness...

when the time comes maybe ill experiment with using half the bands at what would then be "extra" steepness
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zthee



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd be in for one if this becomes reality!
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