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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
MS-20 based SEM / Polysynth ?
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
mono-poly wrote:
Are you gonna add a cs50/cs60/cs80 like rinmod?
I mean with an envelope vca etc.


I could certainly design a module that emulates the CS-80 ringmod and envelopes; but where would you get the single most important part of such a device: the "quadrant sliders" ?!

JH.


Oops i wasn't aware that it used special sliders for it.
To bad Sad
But the ringmod on the cs series is one of the best parts on it imho.
Would be great on your voice module to i guess.
But a seperate one sounds fun to Smile
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:

Oops i wasn't aware that it used special sliders for it.


It certainly works with an ordinary slider, or rotary pot, as well.
But what I tried to say is that, while it's certainly a *good* implementation electronically, I don't see why it would be better than a Roland SH7's Ringmod for instance, or a AD633-based DIY ringmod - *except* for the user interface.

JH.

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes it is "just" a ringmod.
But it is a cool conecept witht he vca and envelope generator used around it.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
Yes it is "just" a ringmod.
But it is a cool conecept witht he vca and envelope generator used around it.


Absolutely!

JH.

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synthetic



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It seems to me that the more complex the project gets, the less people will be interested in purchasing it and the more expensive you'll need to make it. Maybe you can design the project in modules, so that I can just buy three oscillators if I want to and someone else can buy the modules to create a whole polysynth. This would require some extra thought on the link between component boards but it seems worthwhile.

Of course I just want some of the juicy oscillators right now. Smile
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bridechamber



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I love the sound of those oscillators!

Maybe you could continue with the voice idea, and do the oscillators as extras on the side.
: )

This project sounds great.
It would be very nice to be able to make an n-voice module. I love my Mono/Poly, but its lowpass-only filter is a flaw for me. If I could replace it with a Midi/ CV module, that would be quite nice. I trust Jurgen will put in enough "character" to set it apart from the analogs that have been coming out.

I think as much as possible should be VC. If I want four different voices I'll use my modular. I would build a four-voice to experiment/ play with something more... chordal isn't the word, but ya know what I mean.
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Peake



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Quote:
I have never heard a (production) MS20 filter clone that can approach the real thing (Korg 35 version).


Which is remarkable, because it would be so easy to make an exact copy of this: The internal circuit of the Korg 35 is disclosed, the transistors are all available (at least they were, last time I checked.)



It may be due to changes in the gain structure- the MS20 will overdrive into its unusual harmonic distortion/overtones quite easily. Or the sound demos of the more recent designs that I've heard do not head into this territory. The Threeler notwithstanding, which takes this dirt into an entirely new realm.

It's the dirt that I find attractive. The VOSTOK has some of it, IIRC.

Quote:
Quote:
I wouldn't blend the MS filter with the SEM oscillators.


Why not, if I may ask? (I’m not decided on the SEM VCOs yet. Another option is the Korg 700 or 800DV VCO.)


I'd have to hear it. It's not a flavor combination that automatically comes to mind as potentially excellent. I'm open to discovery.

The SEM filter is a very nice sound. The Korg is just a different beast, and its envelope(s) really add to that.

Quote:
Quote:
I'll go my own route here...


What exactly do you plan to build? I’m all for avoiding unnecessary competition, and I can still make changes to my concept. (As if I already had a concept – at the moment, I’m just thinking out loud, of a way to take up that N-Voice poyphonic idea again.)


I'd make up some SEM oscillators for myself at some point, and attempt to include the exact "problems" encountered in the original. No one else would want an obviously problematic oscillator Laughing

If the SEMtex oscillators sound like the originals, I'd just buy them, as I hear that they are being readied for Moog/.com systems.
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Electronicant



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

These SEM-like modules is a sort of voiceboards, are´nt they?

Modules/boards could have several filter alternatives. KORG MS VCF version, SSM2040:s, or even more.

Concerning the quadrant slider, would´nt it be possible to make a clone of it?

Last edited by Electronicant on Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sem boars arejust complete monosynths on one board.
By staking them you create a polysynth.
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Electronicant



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jürgen, When do you estimate to have this poly-project for sale?
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electronicant wrote:
Jürgen, When do you estimate to have this poly-project for sale?


No idea.
Just planning ahead.

JH.

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Electronicant



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What can the cost for the parts be per board?

Could´nt a programmer/patch storage device be an option?

Concerning DIY VCO:s. Don´t forget Rob Keebles project (Analog Metropolis). E-mu and ARP modular clones. I have the E-mu VCO clone here. Indeed a beefy sound.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Completely off topic, but...

one thing I´d love to see would be a Cat on a panel / an octave Cat SRM2 - possibly with some mods.. including a joystick connector on a dotcom 8 or 12 unit sized panel.

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Electronicant



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think this synth is exactly what I´m looking for. I´d be glad if it gives higher priority that the vocoder project so that it´ll be realized soon. Parts of the designs is seems to be there already as you Jürgen have designed polys before.

Looking forward to it Smile
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Noiseconformist



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject:  Re: MS-20 based SEM / Polysynth ?
Subject description: anybody interested?
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Hi Jürgen!
Just stumbled upon this thread and it certainly has drawn my attention!
jhaible wrote:

Separate HPF and LPF like MS-20

"like MS-20" in terms of a 12db LP/6dB HP or a rather true clone?
I'm asking since I got sufficient MS-20-alikes meanwhile.
Quote:

"Linear Detuning" feature that gives the special low range chorusing sound of V/Hz polysynths (CS-80, Trident) despite the use of V/Oct control voltages.

Oh-oh! We talked about this via privat email ages ago, for that feature I'd just get the boards to get the VCOs (and leave the rest unpopulated) Wink
Quote:

Limited on-board features are complimented with loads of external CV inputs (for complex external LFO waves, S&H, Noise, channel or polyphonic aftertouch, velocity, you name it)

So some connections could be normalised so they will be broken as soon as a plug is inserted?
Quote:

Let me know if you're interested.

YES!
Today I'd probably put it behind a bigger MOTM panel.
Or later as a selfcontained unit, like the SEM has been - whatever.
But this VCOs ... linear detuning ... hmm ....
Wink Michael.

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Noiseconformist



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Snappy Envelops Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On another thought (man, I should go to bed) ... this all in one unit would allow some adjustments in the circuitry e.g. to make the envelops really snappy or such.
Sometimes some true modular Filter or VCA / ENV combinations don't sound as good as others in certain applications.
In the case of your desired module this could be avoided since you got the entire design under your control.

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Snappy Envelops Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Noiseconformist wrote:
On another thought (man, I should go to bed) ... this all in one unit would allow some adjustments in the circuitry e.g. to make the envelops really snappy or such.
Sometimes some true modular Filter or VCA / ENV combinations don't sound as good as others in certain applications.
In the case of your desired module this could be avoided since you got the entire design under your control.


Hi Michael,

nice to see you here!

At the moment my thoughts are all on the Scanner prototyping (expect PCB shipping in a few days, if all goes well!), and on the Subtle Chorus Main Board.

N-Voice project is still open in very much directions - let the ideas come ...

JH.

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Noiseconformist



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:04 am    Post subject: Re: SIN: Synth In a Nutshell ? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

Hi Michael,

nice to see you here!

At the moment my thoughts are all on the Scanner prototyping (expect PCB shipping in a few days, if all goes well!), and on the Subtle Chorus Main Board.

N-Voice project is still open in very much directions - let the ideas come ...


Hi Jürgen,

likewise, I'm glad that I decided to stop lurking! Very Happy

Still, for me the most attracting aspect would be the linear detuning feature of the VCOs. If possible over a wider range than only a few Hz - you know I love to experiment!
Today you posted in response to Aaron's Vactrol-ringmodulator question on the SDIY-list - something which sounds (literally) interesting too (the RM).
Regarding the filter I'd prefer something rather new yet simple.
I got a couple of Tony Hardie-Bick's AFM-1 PCBs [picture] which are very nice (if one likes the distorted original MS-20 filter sound).
So another filter in that direction would be overdoing it for me.
(but I stick to that idea to only partially populate the PCB if you decide to go this route)
Then again you mentioned you want to keep it simpler than your JH-4.
However, if you kept the PCB (and schematic) open, people also could combine two of the boards to a bigger selfcontained synth - or synth voice (just had the Chroma in mind *)).
Saying that, if the VCOs were able to go LF ... another possibility to patch a modulator ... two boards = 1-4 VCOs or 1-3 VC-LFOs with a single VCO (whatever combination) ... lots of patching would be possible, even if waveforms were limited.
I also had the thought of a "high quality Soundlab Mini Synth"-like thing (in the context of a self-contained device).
When waveforms on VCOs/LFOs are limited, an extra shaper could be useful. That limits the number of components but offers more patchable possibilities.
But, I'm getting carried away ... Laughing
My personal building backlog is still huge, but spinning ideas is fun!
Michael.

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Noiseconformist



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: the more boards the more power Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Noiseconformist wrote:

However, if you kept the PCB (and schematic) open, people also could combine two of the boards to a bigger selfcontained synth - or synth voice (just had the Chroma in mind *)).


I'm aware that the Chroma's voice boards are implemented the other way round (two rather simple combinable voices on a single board).
But if, for instance, the filter topologie was chosen in a way that it could be combined in various ways when using more than a single PCB, you have a simple synth module/voice board or something pretty powerful when combining two or even more boards.
So, regarding your motivation (as far as I understood), you could have for instance a cool eight voice or an even more powerful four voice synth.
Or, for something completely different, take three of this boards, stuff them into a nice suitcase, get lots of screened wire, patience and a Ghielmetti matrix and go rockin' ... Laughing

Smile Michael.

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Luka



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

vcs3 based VCO was mentioned in this thread
can we start a new thread to guage interest and pressure to release Wink
i'm trying to hold off buying an AFG while i wait for this to be released

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jeffery girlsbottom



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah i would def buy one or two of these. a polyphonic homemade synth is something that needs to be done. very exciting. can you have the same waveshaping function as on the ms-20? so that you can feed a live external source/signal of a sample or whatever and manually tweak the waveshaping to fuck with the processed sound?
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kokoon



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

home made polysynth Smile
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Noiseconformist



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jeffery girlsbottom wrote:
yeah i would def buy one or two of these. a polyphonic homemade synth is something that needs to be done.

Uhm ... Laughing
SCNR Wink

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phdinfunk



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:02 am    Post subject: Yes, yes, and yes... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think this would be a great project. I now am in one of those wonderful times in life where time and money are colliding all over the place and I'm getting lots of building done. I'd love to do one of these four voice type systems.

Here are my suggestions in the project:

Since you want to keep controls simple (and I agree whole heartedly with this decision) I think you should put extra character into each part of the synth, to maximize what you get out of the panel space.

If the oscs could have some one knob wave symmetry then definately add that. Maybe even make the oscs have slightly different features to save panel space. So one could have a symmetry knob and the other could have an FM knob.

For envelopes, make one envelope a regular ADSR (or ADS, like the SEM) and the other one a delay-Attack-On time-Decay style. That would be another nod to the MS and give some really neat options.

----

MS-20 filter: I too liked setting my old four voice for slightly different settings on each voice. I think an MS-20 Hi plus Low pass syetm would be totally unique and cool in this context.


Linear Detune: I'd love to have this feature. I've never heard it before, but you sing its praises a lot on your website and I would enjoy building it.


Normalized patching system a-la MS-20, but less complex: I think this would be a perfect solution for a four voice system.


Well, there's my two cents. Be sure to include a good quality four voice mixer with pan as an add on board (so I can make an FVS!).

--Jonathan
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Norman Phay



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not really very relevant to this, but I was thinking the other day - Wouldn't the VCS3/Synthi A architecture make a wonderful polysynth voice? Add one (1) AD envelope and you'd be rocking. Imagine that - an 8 voice, programmable polysynthi.

As you were, eheh...
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