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Oli
Joined: May 21, 2008
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 Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject:
Warming the G2's sound |
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Hi folk,
I have recently acquired a G2X. I find it to be very versatile, and great at producing lush, layered, refined sounds. However, I have been disappointed with the filters, and would generally like to give the sound some more analogue style warmth. My previous background is mainly with analogue synths, which I would like to be able to approach a little more closely with my G2.
I have read a little about addressing this issue in the patch stage, which is something I am yet to fully explore. I am also seriously thinking about running the audio through a tube processor, which I would like some advice about. I have heard positive reports of people using tube stages this way, but I have no experience in this area.
I can't spend much money on additional hardware, so would either buy a cheap second hand unit, or possibly make my own.
Could anyone advise on particular tube devices for me to look at? Obviously, a lot of tube gear is aimed at mic pre's, guitar distortion, or general pre-amp use. Are there non-pro tube processor units made specifically for this purpose? Perhaps a tweakable tube compressor/distortion?
I may also consider a dedicated outboard analogue filter bank, for use with my bass and lead patches. I will probably be making some midi controlled filters soon, for a MIDIBox project, so may just make an additional stand alone unit.
I previously had expected to be able to reproduce Nord Lead 1 style basses and leads, without too much trouble, but so far have not achieved a similar timbre. My current use of the G2 is just for more refined sounds, but I feel I am missing something, and it should be able to do what I am asking of it. I would preferably like to go beyond what the Lead 1 achieved with its filters.
As a parting question: Do I just need to explore the patches more, or is the G2 just not really suited to this type of sound I am writing about?
Thanks for any advice,
Oli
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elektro80
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject:
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You can in fact make patches that will add some of that analogue feel.
Jan, did Rob make a tilt filter for the G2?
As for addons, you should try using transformers instead of tubes. You might also want to experiment with miking the sound from the synth off a speaker cab.
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blue hell
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject:
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Spectrum tilting, yes 
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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject:
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other warming trick is to add an eq after (and before the filter), also a good idea is to eq before and after the OD module. Just that adds a lot of warmth to the grit.
I also like using the comb filter to add motion and depth.
wrt tubes, I'm not as sold as I used to be. I only heard the presonus bluetube being fed by a nord wave, and I was not impressed. I know better tubes give you better sound (as does keeping them on). But if you buy a tube box for your g2 it shouldn't be more expensive than a g2 itself. It is a personal choice. I'd recommend taking your g2 to a music store to try it out with tubes.
/Dasz |
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jksuperstar
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject:
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Just to add to what Dasz said, higher end tubes are intended, in general, to be as transparent as possible. So, that doesn't help you achieve your goal. And it isn't tubes that offer the "warmer" sound, it's *overdriven tubes* 
Also, Stein is exactly right. Transformers will change your sound much more, as far as smearing/cut-off of higher frequencies & such, than a tube will. Cheaper might be much closer to what you'd like. Something with an iron core especially. You might even find some simple transformers in old phones or radios that you can play with. And if you know how, just measure the impedance and see what the ratio of turns is from that (can't use DC methods, must be AC). Something between 1:1 and 1:4 (or 4:1), and 600:600 turns/ohms ratio is typical for audio use.
Just drop that in on outs 3/4, and back into 3/4 ins, and you've got patchable transformers! |
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Oli
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:38 am Post subject:
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Hi everyone,
Thanks so much for the great replies. These all sound like really good avenues for me to explore.
| electro80 wrote: | You can in fact make patches that will add some of that analogue feel.
Jan, did Rob make a tilt filter for the G2? |
I had read some threads here which referenced that patch, though I had not found the link. Thanks; I'll give that a try.
@Blue Hell: Thanks for the link!
| dasz wrote: | other warming trick is to add an eq after (and before the filter), also a good idea is to eq before and after the OD module. Just that adds a lot of warmth to the grit.
I also like using the comb filter to add motion and depth. |
Cheers mate. I'll definitely give that a try.
| electro80 wrote: | | As for addons, you should try using transformers instead of tubes. You might also want to experiment with miking the sound from the synth off a speaker cab. |
I'll definitely try the transformers. I use audio transformers at work, where I design HF radio pperipherals. I have not been aware of the transformers colouring the sound, as it is already compressed, band limited,noisy, and distorted from the rest of comms system.
I'm hoping to avoid using anything overly labour intensive, such as miking, or tape recording, though I know such processes can give great results. As it is, I tend not to have nearly enough time to spend actually composing music (rather than playing with sound), and am trying to avoid anything which will add a whole new process to the sound design. I can just see myself going in a loop with this one. I might try this when (if) I get around to mastering something.
| jksuperstar wrote: | | Cheaper might be much closer to what you'd like. Something with an iron core especially. You might even find some simple transformers in old phones or radios that you can play with. And if you know how, just measure the impedance and see what the ratio of turns is from that (can't use DC methods, must be AC). Something between 1:1 and 1:4 (or 4:1), and 600:600 turns/ohms ratio is typical for audio use. |
Yes, that's what I was thinking, when using the transformer was suggested. At work, I mostly use high quality 600:600 Ohm modem line transformers, which have a bandwidth much higher than what I put through them, and very low saturation and distortion.
Using iron core makes sense, as the iron is used to increase magnetic flux density, but is also magnetically non-linear, and subject to saturation and hysteresis. I imagine this should provide some soft clipping, and create additional harmonic content.
I'll have to design the stage carefully, to get the appropriate transfer response, though I think this could really work. I'm thinking to use a transformer with just enough band width, and use variable pre-amp drive, and post transformer attenuation. If anyone is interested, I can post back with design/results. That probably wouldn't be for a while, though.
| Dasz wrote: | | I know better tubes give you better sound (as does keeping them on). But if you buy a tube box for your g2 it shouldn't be more expensive than a g2 itself. It is a personal choice. I'd recommend taking your g2 to a music store to try it out with tubes. |
Right, I didn't see much in the way of budget tube stages really aimed at what I was looking for: lots of warmth and character, and the capacity for more distortion and compression would have been an added bonus. I think the expensive tube gear is probably aimed at giving a subtle character to either a whole mix (ala Massive Passive), or specifically to vocals.
I definitely can't afford to spend more than a a couple of hundred dollars on this, and have had mixed reviews on what's available. I have considered the Paia TubeHead. The TubeHead is of course cheap, and is aimed at this kind of application, though I am not sure that the quality would be as good as a comparably priced second hand unit. I'm generally also a little skeptical about the quality of guitar effects, for use with synths: often noisy, and don't provide a suitable sound character for many synth patches.
I will try the changes to the patch design, which have been suggested here, and also try some transformer stages. I'll likely try some tube stages later. I am also considering designing my own tube stage, though from the literature, it seems to be a bit of a black art to doing this well, with lots of application specific knowledge. Much more involved and potentially expensive than designing a transformer stage. I think they could both be quite interesting though.
Another question which I have considered: why are the G2 filters so different from the Lead 1's? I suspect that the Lead 1 used more computationally expensive modelling for its filter stage, where as the G2 modules may be designed to create less processing load, but allow for more complex patch design? Does this guess seem reasonable? I think, fundamentally, they are both algorithm based, and I had expected the G2 to follow on from the IMO really great basis of the Lead 1. To this point, I haven't felt that they are on a parr with each other, though this may just reflect my lack of experience with the G2.
Thanks again everyone. I am really stoked with the great responses from you! Much appreciated.
Oli
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dasz
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:41 am Post subject:
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np, it's a popular topic around here. happy to help!
/Dasz |
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jksuperstar
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject:
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| Oli wrote: | Hi everyone,
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Oli |
Yes, please post any experience you have/get doing this. Sounds like you are probably more versed in transformers that most here (including myself), so it'd be great to hear about your combination of these with the G2.
I just started learning about transformers recently, as my guitarist friend had been battling some noise with some single coil pick ups, but then happen to plug direct into his older practice amp, and suddenly the noise was gone. Research into this opened the door to transformers, and is probably a really good clue as to why digital modelers are so cold, since it's assumed the higher impedance inputs don't need much treatment, but the lack of loading there allows for more noise to come through. I guess it's all about proper balance. |
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Oli
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:03 am Post subject:
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| jksuperstar wrote: | | Yes, please post any experience you have/get doing this. Sounds like you are probably more versed in transformers that most here |
Hi,
I studied transformer models in uni, so I have a reasonable understanding of the electromagnetic theory behind them, though I have no experience using them for musical signal processing. Now seems like a good time to start. I have previously always aimed at no colouration in these stages.
Transformers have some useful properties for coupling signals being transmitted down a cable. They can be used to convert single ended to balanced signals, and back again. I normally use a pair of drivers on the transmission side, through a transformer, into a transformer, which converts to single ended, and a single ended active receiver. There many ways of doing this, depending on the application.
Transformers are great for blocking DC and common mode signals. Most noise picked up on a cable will be common mode, which means there is the same noise signal on both conductors in the cable. There are other ways to block this noise, but a transformer does it very well.
Using active balanced receivers to block this noise, relies on the ability of the receiver to operate at the frequency of the noise. Out of band noise can later get mixed down to audio frequencies. The same thing can happen to some extent with transformers, but much less.
For my work, there is high power radiation up to a few hundred MHz, and transformers are the easiest way to block this.
Audio transformers are fairly large components to put on a PCB, and can really increase the cost of a device, if there are several of them being used.
Power transformers use some material in their cores to increase the field intensity, and maximise the efficiency. However, the material is also non-linear, due to the magnetisation characteristics of the core, and residual field. The shape of the output wave will change, depending on the strength of the signal being fed into it, a little like LED soft clipping, or transistor saturation. Iron cores will also store some magnetisation, which will also cause some distortion in the output wave. Air cores give a much more linear response.
All transformers have a limited band width. Real transformers form an RLC circuit, due to nonidealities. Generally, small transformers will have a lower bandwidth. The limited bandwidth can be a useful characteristic. For my work, we use some very small transformers just for blocking RF. The transformer is then used in series, not parallel. This way will not block DC, but will block RF. These transformers are much cheaper to use, and easy to place on a PCB. For most audio uses, one must be sure there is enough bandwidth to pass the signal, but not too much bandwidth.
My plan is to try using and iron core transformer, with the ability to drive the signal level right up to distortion, if desired. I expect this would also require attenuation, post transformer. I may experiment with transformers of different band width, though I think I will start with something that can pass up to 20kHz.
I don't really expect great results first time. I think this will require finding the right transformer for the job. I also don't yet know how much drive I will need, though I expect it will be quite a bit. I haven't yet designed this type of amplifier, or attenuator before, so it will also take some work to get something decent.
I may need to ring in some help from people with more experience with audio electronics for this.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Cheers,
Oli
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:19 am Post subject:
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You might want to check out this site and study some of the circuits as well as the ideas presented: http://www.jlmaudio.com
They have some DI mods for their preamps and also some transformers there as well.
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Oli
Joined: May 21, 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:29 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | You might want to check out this site and study some of the circuits as well as the ideas presented: http://www.jlmaudio.com
They have some DI mods for their preamps and also some transformers there as well. |
Hey, thanks for the link. I'm reading through it now.
Oli
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ehdyn
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Oli
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 8:36 am Post subject:
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Thanks ehdyn, I'll have a look at that.
I stumbled accross the site of a synth builder, James Phillips, who describes his approach to a transformer mod for his Red Sound Dark Star.
I'll try his advice first, as it seems sound. I'll probably go for a 600Ohm:600Ohm transformer though. I can't see any reason for his choice of 2k primary impedance, but I guess it's just what he had available.
I'll post back when I have some results, but it probably won't be for a while, as I am currently looking for another job, which is likely to take most of my free time.
Oli
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dorremifasol
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:15 am Post subject:
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I would have been nice if the Dark Star guy posted a pair of audio files to compare the sound before and after the mod.
I'm following this thread with interest, please continue 
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Oli
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:43 am Post subject:
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| dorremifasol wrote: | I would have been nice if the Dark Star guy posted a pair of audio files to compare the sound before and after the mod.
I'm following this thread with interest, please continue |
Yeah, audio would have been good, but I guess some of the subtlety would likely be lost in recording/compression. It was still of interest to me, to read about his experiences.
Your interest is encouragement, indeed.
Oli
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject:
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| Oli wrote: |
I stumbled accross the site of a synth builder, James Phillips, who describes his approach to a transformer mod for his Red Sound Dark Star.
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I mentioned this very same modification here (edit; in the Nord G2 forums) about 4 years back, but all members at the time ignored me (probably because they though I was some kind of a low-fi idiot?, and it was before I had become a moderator here), so I'm really pleased that you have mentioned this again, as I'd love to hear what your findings are on this one.
regards,
Tom
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject:
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Frankly, there is hardly any surprise or mystery to what will happen if you throw in an extra gain stage in order to saturate a transformer. Or a tube line driver with two gain stages or clone vintage preamps or what have you. What you will get in most cases is a setup which will allow you to add a fair bit of various well known signature colours to the signal. OK, this is about distortion.. and nothing but distortion. I´ve been mentioning this for some years now.. in a casual way.  And I´ve also mentioned that recording your synths off speakers will add some extras as well. However, none of these techniques are like plugin effects. You can adjust the sound a lot say by choosing which speakers to use or how to mic it and so forth.
The main point is however to work the patch while playing into such a signal path. That is when you truly have the most fun and can patch and explore for the sweet spots.
If this shit works for a Minimoog or a Roland SH-2 then it would work very well for a Clavia Modular. In fact I know it does.
And then there are compressors. Again, the same rule holds; please patch and play into the signal path ( pandas, tubes, compressors, transformers or whatever ). Do not waste time slamming this on as a plugin effect.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject:
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| jksuperstar wrote: |
Transformers will change your sound much more, as far as smearing/cut-off of higher frequencies & such, than a tube will. |
If it´s fatness and silky grit with a hint of mint and gravel we are aiming for, then transformers are it. Personally I do like tube distortion, but it is simply not the holy grail. If we forget the hype for a moment, then it becomes very obvious that a lot of the nice vintage recording gear using tubes were mostly used in a way that added little tube distortion. The design concept at the time was ( no surprises here though ) neutral sound and little noise. However, transformers were everywhere and adding what transformers add. Most of these weren´t really high end either.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject:
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I should add that if you simply want to add a subtle touch of "warmth" (   ) then very little is really needed.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject:
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Hmm.. that being said, I still think there is very little wrong with the NM-1/G2. It is simply not the case that there is something lacking that needs to be fixed. OK, there are a few well documented issues that can be found in older threads here somewhere, but these are hardly problematic. Using transformers in the signal path is just yet another flavor and not about fixing a problem.
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jksuperstar
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | Hmm.. that being said, I still think there is very little wrong with the NM-1/G2. It is simply not the case that there is something lacking that needs to be fixed. OK, there are a few well documented issues that can be found in older threads here somewhere, but these are hardly problematic. Using transformers in the signal path is just yet another flavor and not about fixing a problem. |
Very good point, it is definitely an addition to create sounds outside the usual realm of the G2. That is, it may be possible to patch something *in* the G2 that can add a lot of the same audible qualities that a transformer or tube has, but those DSP cycles might be better off used elsewhere. |
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dorremifasol
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:16 am Post subject:
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Maybe someone here has tried this pedal with the G2?
http://www.ehx.com/products/lpb-2ube
And what about the trasnformers experiment? any progress?
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daemonik
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject:
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Lundahl is well known for there hi-fidelic extraterrestrial Audio-Transformers. They do there job on a lot of pricey pro-equipment. Even standalone operation of lundahl shall polish a sound characteristically......
Personally I can't await building a pair of Pultec EQs from the Gyraf diy site. It's a replica of the famous passive EQ with a tube-amp-stage and of course a lundahl output-transformer.
Thinking on that makes my always tingly and jumpy and having sleepless nights........ |
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kcinsu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject:
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| am I the only one that loves the G2s sound? |
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ian-s
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject:
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| kcinsu wrote: | | am I the only one that loves the G2s sound? |
No, there is me to. |
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