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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Interpolating Scanner: ...I ike to get some ....
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Everyone who is building this may consider a full 19" width front panel - IMO horizontal 19" panels work well together with vertical MOTM modules, and probably with other vertical modules as well.

Just an idea.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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ach_gott



Joined: Sep 09, 2008
Posts: 79
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Everyone who is building this may consider a full 19" width front panel - IMO horizontal 19" panels work well together with vertical MOTM modules, and probably with other vertical modules as well.

Just an idea.

JH.


Hmmmm... My cabinets are 24U wide, so I would have to mount the modules on a hanging rack below the table with the racks. Not too keen on that. At the same time, I lack Dave Brown's prowess with a drill and just about any tool.

I'm going to go with a wide panel. At some point I'm going to have to come to terms with the idea that the modular is going to need a lower table (and another cabinet) if I'm going to be working ergonomically.

Does anyone else here think that this demands a Yusynth fixed filter bank with individual band breakouts?
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morbank



Joined: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 58
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:41 pm    Post subject: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've got my scanner powered up (I had the bridge rectifier soldered in the wrong way) and control over the led's is working but I'm not getting any audio. I've got a drum machine's output plugged in to input 1 and the output connected to my mixer. Should I be able to hear audio with this connection?
-Clay
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Funky40



Joined: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 875
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ach_gott wrote:

Does anyone else here think that this demands a Yusynth fixed filter bank with individual band breakouts?

make it with single outs.
I think it must be great to patch it into the Haible Scanner
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbank wrote:
I've got my scanner powered up (I had the bridge rectifier soldered in the wrong way) and control over the led's is working but I'm not getting any audio. I've got a drum machine's output plugged in to input 1 and the output connected to my mixer. Should I be able to hear audio with this connection?
-Clay


Yes - if, and only if, the LED for input 1 is glowing.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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morbank



Joined: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 58
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ooops, I just realized I haven't grounded my inputs! What is the best way to ground all 9 inputs? And what do you recommend grounding them to?
-Clay
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:06 am    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbank wrote:
Ooops, I just realized I haven't grounded my inputs! What is the best way to ground all 9 inputs? And what do you recommend grounding them to?
-Clay


Connect them to the GND pin of one of the on-board connectors. GND pin of the output connector would be a good choice.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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morbank



Joined: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 58
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Connect them to the GND pin of one of the on-board connectors. GND pin of the output connector would be a good choice.


Done. I can now hear the signal being fed into input 1 through the output! But changing the position of the LED has no effect. I hear the dry signal from input 1 no matter where I move the LED position. Any ideas?
-Clay
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbank wrote:
jhaible wrote:
Connect them to the GND pin of one of the on-board connectors. GND pin of the output connector would be a good choice.


Done. I can now hear the signal being fed into input 1 through the output! But changing the position of the LED has no effect. I hear the dry signal from input 1 no matter where I move the LED position. Any ideas?
-Clay


Normalized to previous jacks?

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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morbank



Joined: Jan 30, 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

Normalized to previous jacks?

JH.


Yes
-Clay
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbank wrote:
jhaible wrote:

Normalized to previous jacks?

JH.


Yes
-Clay


Well, then the answer is obvious: If you have normalized input N+1 to input N, you have the signal of input 1 on all the other inputs, as long as you don't plug anything else into another input jack ...

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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morbank



Joined: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 58
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
you have the signal of input 1 on all the other inputs, as long as you don't plug anything else into another input jack ...

JH.


I'm thinking the scanner is working properly but I don't know how to use it! Jurgen, could you explaine how you set up the scanner for the sound clip on your site that uses the Scan CV Input as the audio source? I think I could figure out how everything works if I had a working set-up to start with.
Thanks for the help!
-Clay

This is where the audio clip example is on your site:
"you can get this by running an audio signal into the Scan CV input!
It's like a waveshaper, but without a waveshaper's static nature".
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbank wrote:
jhaible wrote:
you have the signal of input 1 on all the other inputs, as long as you don't plug anything else into another input jack ...

JH.


I'm thinking the scanner is working properly but I don't know how to use it! Jurgen, could you explaine how you set up the scanner for the sound clip on your site that uses the Scan CV Input as the audio source? I think I could figure out how everything works if I had a working set-up to start with.
Thanks for the help!
-Clay

This is where the audio clip example is on your site:
"you can get this by running an audio signal into the Scan CV input!
It's like a waveshaper, but without a waveshaper's static nature".


The exact setting is hard to reproduce.
But try this:

Feed Audio into Scan input. (With a pot to adjust level)

Fedd various DC voltages and / or LFO signals to the inputs 1 ... 9.
Then listen to the output for different levels of audio input.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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morbank



Joined: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 58
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
listen to the output for different levels of audio input.

JH.


Ok, I'm starting to understand now! It's all about dialing in on something that sounds good and fine tuning from there. I'm getting some pretty raunchy sounds now that I have a better idea what's happening under the hood, thanks Jurgen! Now off to make some noise!
-Clay
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Power but no audio... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbank wrote:
jhaible wrote:
listen to the output for different levels of audio input.

JH.


Ok, I'm starting to understand now! It's all about dialing in on something that sounds good and fine tuning from there. I'm getting some pretty raunchy sounds now that I have a better idea what's happening under the hood, thanks Jurgen! Now off to make some noise!
-Clay


My old page about my first Scanner may also be helpful for descriptions about what is going on:
http://jhaible.heim.at/tonline_stuff/jh_ipscan.html

http://jhaible.heim.at/tonline_stuff/hj_pwl1.gif

http://jhaible.heim.at/tonline_stuff/jh_ipsc_blk.gif

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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riley smith



Joined: Sep 04, 2008
Posts: 10
Location: santa cruz, ca

PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:32 am    Post subject: How about a detailed explanation of Interpolating Scanner?
Subject description: How does it do what it does?
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Hi Jurgen,

I really don't understand the theory of operation - electronically, I mean, (and I don't think I'm the only one). I've read the descriptions you've published, but still don't understand what make the first stage turn off among other things. I've shown it to a couple of engineers and they too scratch their heads.

If you have the time, I'm sure others would appreciate it as well.

Thanks,

- Riley
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: How about a detailed explanation of Interpolating Scanne
Subject description: How does it do what it does?
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riley smith wrote:
Hi Jurgen,

I really don't understand the theory of operation - electronically, I mean, (and I don't think I'm the only one). I've read the descriptions you've published, but still don't understand what make the first stage turn off among other things. I've shown it to a couple of engineers and they too scratch their heads.

If you have the time, I'm sure others would appreciate it as well.

Thanks,

- Riley


Well, if you read my descriptions, you're familiar with the concept (overlapping triangle functions), but not with the implementation. That's because I didn't implement it like I once described it, but used an idea of the brilliant Don Tillman instead. Don, inspired by my first Interpolating Scanner, soon made his own version of it and presented it here: http://www.till.com/articles/scanner/index.html .
So that page will be the missing link for understanding it all.
Don kindly gave me permission to use his idea. I then further modified his circuit, replaced diodes with emitter followers, introduced emitter degradation resistors to linearize the rounded triangles a bit, changed the polarity of the whole circuit (sinks to sources, and vice versa) and shifted the references to negative voltages - in order to use simple transistor pairs as VCAs with GND-referenced signal inputs. Summing all the VCA outputs is done by connecting all the collectors of each side of the 9 variable gain transistor pairs together. I only need the differential amp that converts a long tailed pair into a ready voltage-in / voltage-out VCA once. You can look at it as a discrete VCA (long tailed pair + differential amp) with 9 parallel input stages.

I hope this gives a better understanding. Reading Don's description will be helpful for sure.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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neandrewthal



Joined: May 11, 2007
Posts: 672
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jurgen. I recently finished my interpolating scanner/function generator version and I'm trying to figure out how to fix it. When I turn the scan pot the first LED lights up slightly, then the second, dimmer than the first, then the third, very dim. For the rest of the rotation all the LEDs are dark. When I insert audio into the inputs, it sounds just like you would expect from looking at the LEDs.

I've tried changing all the chips and checked to make sure I read .6-.7v across both junctions of all the transistors when measured with a diode checker. I also measured the output of U13 on pin 1 while I sweep the scan pot. It goes from -4v to 2.7v. I applied an external DC10v and swept the manual pot again and measured 2.1v to 3.5v, but it didn't make any of the LED's light up.

Any idea what's wrong? Also, I noticed that LEDs are an integral part of the circuit and you specified 2mA LEDs and I'm not sure exactly what that means. I used these LED's here:

http://www.futurlec.com/LED/LED5G.shtml

I've also attached a picture of the board. Before anyone asks, there are two places where I had to solder 2 resistors in parallel to get the correct value.


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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

neandrewthal wrote:
Hi Jurgen. I recently finished my interpolating scanner/function generator version and I'm trying to figure out how to fix it. When I turn the scan pot the first LED lights up slightly, then the second, dimmer than the first, then the third, very dim. For the rest of the rotation all the LEDs are dark. When I insert audio into the inputs, it sounds just like you would expect from looking at the LEDs.

I've tried changing all the chips and checked to make sure I read .6-.7v across both junctions of all the transistors when measured with a diode checker. I also measured the output of U13 on pin 1 while I sweep the scan pot. It goes from -4v to 2.7v. I applied an external DC10v and swept the manual pot again and measured 2.1v to 3.5v, but it didn't make any of the LED's light up.

Any idea what's wrong? Also, I noticed that LEDs are an integral part of the circuit and you specified 2mA LEDs and I'm not sure exactly what that means. I used these LED's here:

http://www.futurlec.com/LED/LED5G.shtml

I've also attached a picture of the board. Before anyone asks, there are two places where I had to solder 2 resistors in parallel to get the correct value.


2mA LEDs just means that for the LEDs to light up enough that you see them, they should be of that "low current" (2mA) type. If you's use 10mA or 20mA LEDs, the circuit would still work, but yo'd ony see the LEDs shining in a dark room.

So, the LEDs could not be a problem, except when they are defective (open circuit) or soldered in backwards.

As long as you cannot move the LED dot across all 9 channels, it's useless to check further with audio.

There's a lot of npn (BC550) and pnp (BC560) transistors - any chance that you mixed one up somewhere?

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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neandrewthal



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Jurgen.

jhaible wrote:
iThere's a lot of npn (BC550) and pnp (BC560) transistors - any chance that you mixed one up somewhere?


Unfortunately not. I just triple checked.

Do the voltages I read sound normal, meaning that the problem would be somewhere in the VCA's rather than the control section?

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neandrewthal



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I found the problem. You were very close. I had a BC560 in place of the TL431 regulator. I didn't read the TL431 text on the board and just put BC560's in any transistor holes that weren't marked for BC550's doh

Now it's working perfectly Very Happy There are so many uses for this module, I wish I had three.

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JoeMorris



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know Im betraying my severe lack of knowledge here, but was does this interpolating scanner actually do?

Joe
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JoeMorris wrote:
I know Im betraying my severe lack of knowledge here, but was does this interpolating scanner actually do?

Joe

it is like a CV crossfader, but you have 9 inputs which you can crossfade by CV.
read here
http://www.jhaible.de/interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib/jh_interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib.html

you can also do a tracking generator within the same module and also use this as a waveshaper.
And its also the same board as the interpolating chorus. you *can* make all functionalitys within one module.

the simpliest patch is to use the Haible scanner as a "preset-VCA / Tremolo.
build two and you have a stereo Tremolo ( the best in the world in my opinion. saying this without knowing analog FX, but knowing LFOs Laughing )
alone worth to build two Haible Scanner.
at least it was for me
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

neandrewthal wrote:
Ok, I found the problem. You were very close. I had a BC560 in place of the TL431 regulator. I didn't read the TL431 text on the board and just put BC560's in any transistor holes that weren't marked for BC550's doh

Now it's working perfectly Very Happy There are so many uses for this module, I wish I had three.


Glad it works now!
I already felt a bit guilty for not providing much help here ... but my PSpice is still down Sad

No problem in selling you two more boards. Smile

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTTV2LfLucc

Wow!

Thanks for making this demo!

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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