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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Interpolating Scanner: ...I ike to get some ....
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Funky40



Joined: Sep 24, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:19 am    Post subject: Interpolating Scanner: ...I ike to get some .... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Jürgen,

i just stepped over your interpolating Scanner because it twas mentioned on another thread.
http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-26745.html

JH on his site wrote:
If someone would ask me about my favorite synthesizer module, I would not hesitate to name this one.



i like to get this one !

Please


the Sequential switches are producing artefacts when switching between Audio sources, so interpolating is needed.
hmmmm, you may know it allready Wink

and i also have the same wish as loss in the above linked Thread.
Being able to choose the signal by voltage, not just stepping thrue inputs.


anybody else ?
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's going to happen.
I'm already collecting mails to estimate the number of boards.
So all who are interested, please send me an email with "Interpolating Scanner interest" in the subject line. (Please send email, not PM)
These are *not* considered as binding orders yet - just used for a good estimation of quantities.

It will probably be the next project after the String Filter (before Dim D and Dim T) - I've already made a working prototype.

It will have 9 inputs (one more than my first one), because the same PCB will be used for my Hammond Scanner Vibrato emulation.

For the Interpolating Scanner, you buy the same PCB, but only partly populate it. (And some component values will be different, too.)

The thread about the Scanner Vibrato is here:
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-19217-25.html

But even though it uses the same PCB, it's a good idea to keep separate threads for the quite different applications. So thanks for starting a proper Interpolating Scanner Thread! Smile

I've also written something up on my homepage that links the two older projects together, and where the progress of the PCB project will be documented:

http://www.jhaible.heim.at/interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib/jh_interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib.html

A sound sample for the Interpolating Scanner used as VC crossfader over 8 filterbank outputs can be found here:

http://jhaible.heim.at/mp3/jh_illumi.mp3
(That's from th eopening track of my CD "Holiday in Purgatory", and it was recorded with the old, 8-Input version of the Interpolating Scanner.)

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great News, thanks Jürgen !

( I haven't followed the Scanner Vibrato thread )





from Jürgens Website wrote:
IMO - and I know this is shameless advertising! - everybody needs at least two of these PCBs: One as Chorus Vibrato, and one as a generic Interpolating Scanner. But then again, you may want at least 3 Interpolating Scanners in a modular: One for Oscillator waveform crossfade (a la RSF Kobol), one for Filter response crossfade, and one as a tracking generator.
Oh, I forgot voltage controlled LFO waveform crossfade. Smile


hehe, i was allready thinink about the numbers bevore seeing this.
but then i tought to my Wallet.........and my backlog.


one Question is open:
1. ) it is possible to select the numbers of stages, yes ?


ok, my boardrelated questions goes to the original thread.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:

1. ) it is possible to select the numbers of stages, yes ?


Good question!

If you want less than 9 stages temporarily, you can either attenuate / limit your CV, or you can normalize each input to the previous one, so you'll stay within "scan range" for any number of inputs used.
(For CVs that are smaller than needed for stage 1, or bigger than for stage 9, the scan position is automatically limited to 1 or 9, respectively.)

If you want to have less than 9 stages permanently (and don't want to spend the money for 9 transistor pairs), this should be possible with some hacking of the circuit (omitting components and using wire bridges instead).

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've made an update of the web page, showing how to configure this PCB as an
ordinary Interpolating Scanner, a Tracking Generator, a Waveshaper, and a
hybrid of Scanner and Waveshaper.
The latter produces sounds that are less static than are common in normal
waveshapers.
Here's a sound sample (first dry, then thru the Scanner/Waveshaper):
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib/jh_ipsacan_waveshaper_5lfos.wav

It's all explained on the web page, here:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib/jh_interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib.html

I hope you like it. Smile

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scanner vibrato timeline change (will come *earlier*)

Hi,

I had to make a slight change in the timeline for my Interpolating Scanner and Scanner Vibrato PCBs.
I’m going to “drink the waters” for more or less the whole of September, so I decided not to let you wait until October, but to bring it *forward* instead.
What I did is simply this: I placed the order at the PCB factory yesterday, and plan to distribute the PCBs, starting Mid-August.

So what if you haven’t placed your order yet?
Don’t worry. I’m having about *twice* as many PCBs manufactured, compared to the number of orders I have right now. Call me insane, but I’m doing this at my own risk because I’m convinced that I’ll get a lot more orders as soon as the first modules are built and people start to realize what they can use it for. Smile

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Jürgen,
I'm building the Scanner: I have some Resistorquestions:

110K: i have 113K, is this ok ? ( exactly: 112,8K - 113,1K )
3K6: I have 3K65 ( exactly: 3K63 - 3K65 )

whats your Opinion, better waiting till i get the desired Values or is it not so sensible ?
Thanks
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:
Hello Jürgen,
I'm building the Scanner: I have some Resistorquestions:

110K: i have 113K, is this ok ? ( exactly: 112,8K - 113,1K )
3K6: I have 3K65 ( exactly: 3K63 - 3K65 )

whats your Opinion, better waiting till i get the desired Values or is it not so sensible ?
Thanks


Yes, that's ok.
If memory serves (not looking into schemos from here), I have two 110k's in series with a capacitor in between. (A 220k total resistance with lag-function). YOu can also split these 220k into 100k + 120k (instead of 110k + 110k).

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jeffery girlsbottom



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

please put me down for 3.
pm me.
thank you.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jeffery girlsbottom wrote:
please put me down for 3.
pm me.
thank you.


Order forms can be found here:
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-26164.html

Please email them (no PM).

I'll come back to you next week, when I'm back at work.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have prepared my Frontpanel to have a Center Pot.
I recognised that it has a Center "pot" when looking to the schematics because i like to have a LFO out.
Ok, now i see the Center "pot" is just a Trimmer Embarassed ( i should not build that chaotic Wink )
I like to have the center pot for the LFO, thats a good thing !
Q1: is there any Problem or something i should be aware when replacing the Center-LFO Trimmer with a Pot ?


Q2: as metioned, i'll try to bring the LFO to a Jack. I take it bevore the junctionpoint with Scan-CV in.
Any problems when i do so ? do i have to buffer the LFO ?

Q3: the Faceplate is prepared to get a Switch to switch between Scanner and Tracking generator.
As far i understand this is just a thing of normalisation/ Ground connection of Jack 1.
I just switch this connections from Jack 1, is that right ?
( all the Groundwires of the input jacks are then ofcourse wired in a Chain to Jack 1. All Inputs are normalised. and the switch connects to Manual CV )


i thought to that Idea while i was drilling the faceplate:
One could use the Scanner also as a Mixer
----> Wire all inputs behind the pots to a (additional) mixerstage and just make mix out jacks.
so if the interpolating Scanner is not needed it can act as a (Big) mixer.
The Frontplate would need just one more Jack .
hmmm, i have to surch for that little free space for that one Jack... Laughing
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:
I have prepared my Frontpanel to have a Center Pot.
I recognised that it has a Center "pot" when looking to the schematics because i like to have a LFO out.
Ok, now i see the Center "pot" is just a Trimmer Embarassed ( i should not build that chaotic Wink )
I like to have the center pot for the LFO, thats a good thing !
Q1: is there any Problem or something i should be aware when replacing the Center-LFO Trimmer with a Pot ?


Q2: as metioned, i'll try to bring the LFO to a Jack. I take it bevore the junctionpoint with Scan-CV in.
Any problems when i do so ? do i have to buffer the LFO ?

Q3: the Faceplate is prepared to get a Switch to switch between Scanner and Tracking generator.
As far i understand this is just a thing of normalisation/ Ground connection of Jack 1.
I just switch this connections from Jack 1, is that right ?
( all the Groundwires of the input jacks are then ofcourse wired in a Chain to Jack 1. All Inputs are normalised. and the switch connects to Manual CV )


i thought to that Idea while i was drilling the faceplate:
One could use the Scanner also as a Mixer
----> Wire all inputs behind the pots to a (additional) mixerstage and just make mix out jacks.
so if the interpolating Scanner is not needed it can act as a (Big) mixer.
The Frontplate would need just one more Jack .
hmmm, i have to surch for that little free space for that one Jack... Laughing


The LFO output (buffered, but before VC level control!) is U15, Pin 7.
The trimmer is just to center the LFO swing around the input offset voltage of the OTA U14B - there is not much use for it otherwise. Nothing you couldn't achieve by adding a DC offset.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

About combining Scanner and Tracking generator:
If you start with this picture (Scanner) http://www.jhaible.heim.at/interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib/jh_interpolating_scanner_wiring.jpg

and normalize the first (left) jack to +5V instead of GND, you have an unipolar (positive output only) tracking generator. Derive the +5V from +15V with a 1k5 and a 3k resistor. Do *not* normalize to a voltage without a resistor in between, as plugging in cables might monentarily short something.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
The trimmer is just to center the LFO swing around the input offset voltage of the OTA U14B - there is not much use for it otherwise. Nothing you couldn't achieve by adding a DC offset.

JH.

hmmm, i dont understand really, and my english.........
Does this mean the LFO is centered to the settings of Manual CV and CV in ?

hmmm, there's then one Hole to much in my faceplate Laughing
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
and normalize the first (left) jack to +5V instead of GND, you have an unipolar (positive output only) tracking generator.

I thought i switch both:
+V as a normalisation to Jack1,
-V will be swapped with the Grnd Connection of Pot 1 ( and the other pots as they have Grnd wired in series )

I hope my Idea works ?
I thought i can do all with a DPDT switch.
( the other question i keep open , i just need clarity about the switching for now)


paint, jh_tracking_gen_and_waveshaper_wiring.JPG
 Description:
the market points i like to wire to a switch .
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paint, jh_tracking_gen_and_waveshaper_wiring.JPG



paint, jh_interpolating_scanner_wiring.JPG
 Description:
GRnd connection and Normalisation of input 1 to switch
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paint, jh_interpolating_scanner_wiring.JPG


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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:
jhaible wrote:
and normalize the first (left) jack to +5V instead of GND, you have an unipolar (positive output only) tracking generator.

I thought i switch both:
+V as a normalisation to Jack1,
-V will be swapped with the Grnd Connection of Pot 1 ( and the other pots as they have Grnd wired in series )

I hope my Idea works ?
I thought i can do all with a DPDT switch.
( the other question i keep open , i just need clarity about the switching for now)


Should work.
Except that you should *not* get the voltages directly from +/-15V (board connector for manual scan pot) if you do any routing via input jacks.
Try getting +/-5V - either with passive dividers as described above, or get +/- 5V from the suppies with some short-circuit protected buffering (limit to 20mA or so).

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:
jhaible wrote:
The trimmer is just to center the LFO swing around the input offset voltage of the OTA U14B - there is not much use for it otherwise. Nothing you couldn't achieve by adding a DC offset.

JH.

hmmm, i dont understand really, and my english.........
Does this mean the LFO is centered to the settings of Manual CV and CV in ?

hmmm, there's then one Hole to much in my faceplate Laughing


(German mode on)
Der 13600 hat einen Eingangs-Offset-Fehler.
Dieser wird ausgeglichen, indem die Dreieck-Wellenform des LFOs leicht positiv oder negativ verschoben wird. Ziel ist, am (Strom-)Ausgang des 13600 einen nullsymmetrisches Dreieck zu erzeugen. dann verschiebt nämlich die LFO-Tiefe (i.e. Verstärkung des 13600) den manuell eingestellten Initialwert für den Scan nicht. (Normalerweise die fünfte der 9 LEDs)

(German mode off)

JH.

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Funky40



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
(German mode on)
Der 13600 hat einen Eingangs-Offset-Fehler.
Dieser wird ausgeglichen, indem die Dreieck-Wellenform des LFOs leicht positiv oder negativ verschoben wird. Ziel ist, am (Strom-)Ausgang des 13600 einen nullsymmetrisches Dreieck zu erzeugen. dann verschiebt nämlich die LFO-Tiefe (i.e. Verstärkung des 13600) den manuell eingestellten Initialwert für den Scan nicht. (Normalerweise die fünfte der 9 LEDs)

(German mode off)

JH.

ok, i understand.
Thanks very much.
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Should work.
Except that you should *not* get the voltages directly from +/-15V (board connector for manual scan pot) if you do any routing via input jacks.
Try getting +/-5V - either with passive dividers as described above, or get +/- 5V from the suppies with some short-circuit protected buffering (limit to 20mA or so).

JH.

ok, so i'm fine with my Design on this one.



concerning my Module:
it is anyway thought to bring out the CV from the Manual pot to a own CV out socket.
First i thought i just buffer it.
But as it is +-15V i gonna put a stereo pot in there, and i will feed this then with +-5V over a dougther Board.
That seems to be the best Solution for me.
so this signal will then be used for the Tracking generator too.


Quote:
or get +/- 5V from the suppies with some short-circuit protected buffering (limit to 20mA or so).

Is it ok just to put a TL072 Buffer between the pot and the input sockets ?
some resistors needed behind the TL072 ? 1K i assume
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:

Is it ok just to put a TL072 Buffer between the pot and the input sockets ?
some resistors needed behind the TL072 ? 1K i assume


I wouldn't use a TL072 for buffering DC.
LM358, MC1458 - something like that.
Try 330R at the opamp output. This is to prevent oscillations, more than to limit the current.

JH.

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morbank



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:49 pm    Post subject: Slow Down Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, so I thought I was ready to start connecting my controls... But I'm not. After reading and re-reading the wiring diagrams I am now really confused.
I was hoping to configure my PCB as the Interpolating Scanner and run synths or guitars through it as in the Waveshaper sound example on the Scanner/Vibrato page. Should I be following the "Interpolating Scanner" instructions or the "Waveshaper/Nonlinear Function" instructions?
-Clay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Slow Down Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

morbank wrote:
Ok, so I thought I was ready to start connecting my controls... But I'm not. After reading and re-reading the wiring diagrams I am now really confused.
I was hoping to configure my PCB as the Interpolating Scanner and run synths or guitars through it as in the Waveshaper sound example on the Scanner/Vibrato page. Should I be following the "Interpolating Scanner" instructions or the "Waveshaper/Nonlinear Function" instructions?
-Clay


I think I have to draw a diagram for a combined function.

JH.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: Slow Down Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

I think I have to draw a diagram for a combined function.
JH.


I would also appreciate it much to have a combined diagram. I have wired everything for a scanner, and am now looking at how to expand it to a waveshaper as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Slow Down Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

whomper wrote:
jhaible wrote:

I think I have to draw a diagram for a combined function.
JH.


I would also appreciate it much to have a combined diagram. I have wired everything for a scanner, and am now looking at how to expand it to a waveshaper as well.


Done:

http://www.jhaible.heim.at/interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib/jh_interpolating_scanner_and_scanvib.html

JH.

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morbank



Joined: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 58
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: New STGWNF Diagram Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Jurgen! This helps a lot. But...

- When wiring to the pots from the PCB connectors that have only two pins, which pin on the pot isn't used? #2?

- What pins should I connect to from the AC board connector to the AC jack?

- If I use the diagram for the Scanner & Tracing Generator/Waveshaper/Nonlinear Funtion (aka: STGWNF) will there be any unused pins or other connectons that will need jumpers?

- And lastly, should I replace the 470u caps with 1000uF caps like I did on the Compact Phaser.
Thanks again, Clay
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