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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Ken Stone designs - CGS
Expanding the Grinder?
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creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:03 pm    Post subject: Expanding the Grinder?
Subject description: Wave Multipliers question
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I am laying out a panel for the CGS wave multipliers and I have two empty spots for either pots, jacks, or one of each, in the section for the "Grinder". Does anyone have ideas on useful additional frontpanel components for this circuit? I would just add attenuators to the input and output to fill up the space, but before I do that, I thought I would ask to see if anyone has ideas.
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guitarfool



Joined: Feb 26, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There's not much you can add to the grinder, unless you modified it for voltage control of the "lag" and "drive" (a worthwhile endeavor I plan to do someday Very Happy ).

Did you add a control for initial pulse width on the folder? I didn't on my first panel, and I regretted it enough to redo the layout and make new panels for mine. Embarassed
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ericcoleridge



Joined: Jan 16, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Expanding the Grinder?
Subject description: Wave Multipliers question
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creatorlars wrote:
Does anyone have ideas on useful additional frontpanel components for this circuit? I would just add attenuators to the input and output to fill up the space, but before I do that, I thought I would ask to see if anyone has ideas.


I second what guitarfool said, voltage control over the grider and/or lockhart multiplier would be very useful. I haven't put my wavefolder behind a panel yet, but I'm definitely gonna try to experiment with bridechamber's vc vactrol/resistor before I do so.

I've heard it expressed here that using both the grinder and lockhart might be redundant, what do you think creatorlars? Do they sound the same/similar?
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

guitarfool wrote:

Did you add a control for initial pulse width on the folder? I didn't on my first panel, and I regretted it enough to redo the layout and make new panels for mine. Embarassed


Can you explain this more? Would'nt the pulse width on vco you're sending to the wave multiplier provide the same control?
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guitarfool



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
guitarfool wrote:

Did you add a control for initial pulse width on the folder? I didn't on my first panel, and I regretted it enough to redo the layout and make new panels for mine. Embarassed


Can you explain this more? Would'nt the pulse width on vco you're sending to the wave multiplier provide the same control?


Nope. The Wave Multiplier has a pulse-width modulation circuit fed from the folded wave output, giving you 2 outputs: the fold and pulse. Ken's schematic shows 2 PWM control inputs. One of them ought to be used for initial pulse-width.

Here's a crappy photo of what I ended up with:


WaveMultNew.jpg
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creatorlars



Joined: Nov 26, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for all the notes, guys!

I have my board assembled but have not actually tested it yet. Usually I finish a panel before testing a circuit -- I know this isn't the best workflow -- it has definitely bit me in the ass a couple times when I did not thoroughly research my options (such as my Cynare panel) or couldn't get the circuit fully functional (my 909 BD module.) But I've been too lazy/broke to rig up a testing rig with a power supply, etc... I should probably do that. Smile

In any case, yes, I have CV Input/Attenuator/Offset for Folds, PWM and Offset on my panel.

Additionally I have:
Inputs: Main Input+Attenuator, Tri In, Square In
Outputs: Square Out, Pulse Out, Tri Out, Folds Out
Controls: Lag

And of course the Grinder components.

Do you think having the full list of available outs and ins is useful, or do they become redundant? I think the only thing I'm leaving out from the wiring diagram on Ken's site is a Tri Input attenuator.

If I were to VC up the Grinder, should I do lag & drive both? Which one would be most useful?

Thanks so much for your thoughts.
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So, it looks like neither of you is using the lockhart ,ultiplier, right? Or are you both using a version of the PCB where it is not included?
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creatorlars



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know that the Grinder is a separate/independent circuit that's included on the PCB, but I'm pretty confused about the difference between the primary wave multiplier and the lockhart multiplier -- it seems like the circuits are dependent on each other?

Everything I listed above is pretty exhaustively utilizing the wiring diagram on the CGS site, so I don't think I'm missing anything.
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guitarfool



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
So, it looks like neither of you is using the lockhart ,ultiplier, right? Or are you both using a version of the PCB where it is not included?


I used Ken Stone's (Cat-Girl Synth) PCB, the CGS-29, which has the Wave-Folder and Grinder circuits. You may be thinkng of Scott Deyo's (Bridechamber) PCB(s), which are a different kettle of fish (although Ken Stone does have a PCB for the Lockhart circuit).

[EDIT] Ah, I sit corrected. Ken has a new version of the CGS29 with the Lockhart added. I built mine years ago with the old version.
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guitarfool



Joined: Feb 26, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

creatorlars wrote:

Do you think having the full list of available outs and ins is useful, or do they become redundant? I think the only thing I'm leaving out from the wiring diagram on Ken's site is a Tri Input attenuator.


Sounds good to me. I don't think you'll find any of it redundant. The Wave Folder is on of my favorite modules and I think you'll really enjoy it. Very Happy

creatorlars wrote:
If I were to VC up the Grinder, should I do lag & drive both? Which one would be most useful?


Both. I've found that twiddling both knobs at the same time on the grinder makes for some interesting sounds. Also, the Lockhart folder (Ken sent me one when they first came out) takes both a gain and DC offset on the input signal to operate. To fully implement voltage control on this would require a VCA followed by a DC coupled mixer to the input. Another thing I plan on playing with one of these days Rolling Eyes
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neandrewthal



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm building the Bridechamber version which was the LWF and a real ring modulator and I have two extra jack spaces. Any suggestions?
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creatorlars



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll post my panel design in the next day or two for your critique.

Can someone explain to me the Lockhart Multiplier and how/if it's independent of the primary wavefolder?
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The way I understood the description, the LM is just another 'simple' waveshaper, like the Grinder circuit. Simple, because there is no voltage control.

Both the Grider and Lockhart are completely separate from the main Wave Multiplier. All three have there own Inputs and Outputs. At least one person on this forum has commented that the two simple waveshapers, grinder and lockhart, sound the same.

The reason I'm wondering if this is true, if they indeed sound the same, is because I'm planning on using my wave multiplier as a dedicated wave-shaper on a VCO. I'm going to build them together.
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otherunicorn



Joined: May 11, 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
The reason I'm wondering if this is true, if they indeed sound the same, is because I'm planning on using my wave multiplier as a dedicated wave-shaper on a VCO. I'm going to build them together.


I don't think they sound alike. If they did, I wouldn't have bothered to release the two designs.

Ken

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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

otherunicorn wrote:

I don't think they sound alike. If they did, I wouldn't have bothered to release the two designs.
Ken


Thanks Ken; I guess it was sort of a silly question, and one that I can answer myself by listening! But I'm doing a preliminary panel design and was wondering. I'll definitely try them both out.
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